In Defense of Digital Freedom

From: Rod-Lists 
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For your perusal:

It is impossible to follow the news without being confronted with ‘cyber’ related issues. Cybercrime, cyber police, cyber-attack, cyber war, cyber terrorism, cyber Monday, cyber punk, cyber party, cybersex and cyberspace are only a few of a long list of words that have joined our vocabulary in recent years. Everything seems to be ‘cyber’.

Though so far, cyber-attacks have not lead to immediate deaths or large-scale destruction, when talking about cyber security, it is important to know what it is we seek to defend: digital freedoms and our open societies. We need to defend democratic principles not only against outside attacks, but also against erosion from within. Too often freedom is compromised for alleged security or by a focus on a misperceived threat.

Digital freedoms and fundamental rights need to be enforced, and not eroded in the face of vulnerabilities, attacks, and repression. In order to do so, essential and difficult questions on the implementation of the rule of law, historically place-bound by jurisdiction rooted in the nation-state, in the context of a globally connected world, need to be addressed. This is a matter for the EU as a global player, and should involve all of society.
http://www.marietjeschaake.eu/2013/05/in-defence-of-digital-freedom/

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Am I the only one who cannot take any group using the word Cyber seriously? r=92 nt de to e

=============================================================== From: Garrett Gaston ------------------------------------------------------ Well=2C I'm a libertarian so I don't think relying on the EU makes a lot of= sense. Looking to a government body to protect freedom can only have the o= pposite affect=2C at least in the long run. Freedom naturally occurs in the= absence of government intervention. This is why I think bitcoin is such a = great idea (sure wish I could get it working on my system)=2C it completely= circumvents government involvement and is thus naturally free. The second = G comes in to regulate it or anything else ( to enforce freedom of course )= it will cease to be free. I think it's crazy the way people want mere regu= lation for the big corporation considering it was regulation that grew thes= e corporation that large and powerful to begin with. They use regulation to= impose rules that smaller competitors can not afford to keep up with weedi= ng out competition. This is only possible when the state steps and regulate= s these corporations=2C corporations that have just bought off their own re= gulators. This of course is unlikely to happen in a true free market where = there is no regulation. Anyway=2C enough of my libertarian ranting=2C might= want to check out these links. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html & http://themisescircle.org/blog/2013/05/22/crypto-anarchy-and-libertarian-en= trepreneurship-chapter-i/ Date: Tue=2C 16 Jul 2013 15:17:16 -0400 From: ub3ratl4sf00@gmail.com To: chugalug@chugalug.org Subject: Re: [Chugalug] In Defense of Digital Freedom Am I the only one who cannot take any group using the word Cyber seriously? On Tue=2C Jul 16=2C 2013 at 2:47 PM=2C Rod-Lists wrot= e: =0A= For your perusal: =0A= =0A= It is impossible to follow the news without being confronted with =91cyber= =92 related issues. Cybercrime=2C cyber police=2C cyber-attack=2C cyber war= =2C cyber terrorism=2C cyber Monday=2C cyber punk=2C cyber party=2C cyberse= x and cyberspace are only a few of a long list of words that have joined ou= r vocabulary in recent years. Everything seems to be =91cyber=92. =0A= =0A= =0A= Though so far=2C cyber-attacks have not lead to immediate deaths or large-s= cale destruction=2C when talking about cyber security=2C it is important to= know what it is we seek to defend: digital freedoms and our open societies= . We need to defend democratic principles not only against outside attacks= =2C but also against erosion from within. Too often freedom is compromised = for alleged security or by a focus on a misperceived threat. =0A= =0A= =0A= Digital freedoms and fundamental rights need to be enforced=2C and not erod= ed in the face of vulnerabilities=2C attacks=2C and repression. In order to= do so=2C essential and difficult questions on the implementation of the ru= le of law=2C historically place-bound by jurisdiction rooted in the nation-= state=2C in the context of a globally connected world=2C need to be address= ed. This is a matter for the EU as a global player=2C and should involve al= l of society. =0A= =0A= http://www.marietjeschaake.eu/2013/05/in-defence-of-digital-freedom/ =0A=

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ No. Unfortunately, the media totally obliterated the word in the late 80s/ early 90s. Hard to take seriously now.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ So Garret, tell me about how government intervention in the form of child labor laws, minimum wage, OSHA, and food quality standards are bad things? e G w p ps entrepreneurship-chapter-i/ y? r=92 nt de to e

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ you forget - cyber-commuting, cyber-stalking, cyber-bullying, and cyber-hate. *- Chad W. Smith* r=92 nt de to e

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Not even close. *- Chad W. Smith* On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Stephen Kraus wrot= e: y? er=92 e n ant ide to le

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ 'Cyberspace' US Air Force won't shutup about it. But they cannot even get good latency on their own network. er=92 e n ant ide to le

=============================================================== From: Matt Keys ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah my old AFSC was rolled into the new "cybersecurity" AFSC. IIRC think they rolled up 3C2's, 3C0's, and 2E2's. Not sure 'bout satcom.

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Also the SEC. Without them maintaining the stock exchanges, we wouldn't have anything close to a free market for stocks. On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Stephen Kraus wrot= e: ? f he a y d G ) ew ep eps e -entrepreneurship-chapter-i/ er=92 e n ant ide to le

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ As anyone who has lived in the third world, weak government can be a BAAAD thing. ----- Original Message -----

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dslums&tbm=3Disch D entrepreneurship-chapter-i/

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ I generally read non-fiction, and I generally read from that non-fiction philosophy and economics. So, I'd like to chime in about how government intervention distorts market signals and creates a lot of hectic and bad things. First, I want to address this nonsense about child labor. The reason why child labor was around was because the lack of capital. Innovation was just then growing so there were a lot of children that NEEDED to work in order for the family to survive. If you think that you can come up with some magical way for people to be automatically boosted from and sustained from poverty, I'd love to hear it (and I am not being a sarcastic asshole about it, I am saying this genuinely). Although, I highly doubt that just one person could come up with that solution, which is why we have something called spontaneous order. That means that the system we have is from human action, not human design. Nobody designed capitalism, it's just how things work because that's really the only way to get out of poverty: increasing productivity. Furthermore, the nonsense about abolishing minimum wage as being a bad thing.. your basic econ 101 book will tell you the laws of supply and demand. More people are now going to come out looking for a job at a higher wage, even though there will be less jobs available. Furthermore, there have been more studies that show minimum wage increases unemployment. Do we really believe that minimum wage is a living wage anyway? That is clearly not true. There are a lot more reasons if you just go to the wiki page of minimum wage, but those are what I remember off the top of my head. As for OSHA, we don't really even know if OSHA is effective considering working conditions were getting better before it was created. Reminds me of Rudy Giuliani taking credit for the decrease in violence even after the decrease was in progress prior to his mayorship. Food quality is a tougher issue.. first off, demand is a powerful thing. Look at how many people who are against MSG or aspartame. Look how many people are against genetically modified foods. Have you seen the amount of companies that are now switching away from MSG or aspartame? Whole Foods is forcing companies that use GMO's to be labeled in their store. Now, I don't really think GMO's are a bad thing, but lets assume I am wrong. Who is allowing them to be sold? Who is deeming them safe? The same, especially, with aspartame where there have been tons of allegations of conflicts of interest. So the idea that government is protecting you is mostly fallacious anyway. It's not necessarily about evil people, but the incentive structure built within the political system that allows for these conflicts of interest and what not. Also, the SEC did a great job with Bernie Madoff, right? It's hard to imagine that there is only one solution to handling the stock market situation and that being the government. That is not true at all. Spontaneous order comes into play here. We don't even need a central bank, really. We need less regulations, if anything because they act as a barrier to entry. When we have barriers to entry, what do we learn from our econ 101 textbooks? There is more likelihood of an oligopoly or monopoly. What happens when we have oligopolies and monopolies? Nothing good, that's for sure. -entrepreneurship-chapter-i/

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21567072-evidence-mounting-moderate-minimum-wages-can-do-more-good-harm http://www.businessforafairminimumwage.org/signatories http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/minwagestmt2006/ http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-16/u-s-minimum-wage-lower-than-in-lbj-era-needs-a-raise.html ----- Original Message -----

=============================================================== From: Bret McHone ------------------------------------------------------ I would suggest stopping this thread or at least getting it back on topic. -B

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Tyler, children had to work because abysmal wages mean't the parents couldn't afford to both feed and house the family. Also, the children working didn't result in them actually help digging the family out of poverty, chances are all the children would spend their lives in poverty. You cannot honestly suggest that repealing Child Labor laws to be a sane and acceptable plan. And lets not even get started on WHY those laws were put in place, and why OSHA was put in place. Because abysmal working conditions, often leading to disability and death, were surely favorable towards a progressive life and climbing the corporate ladder.

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ Here are some actual recent studies rather than news articles and signatures: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Bad government is possible and present. However, it is fallacious to assume that because bad government is possible and present, all government is bad. This sentence in a separate paragraph from the previous sentence because its subject is slightly different, or perhaps because it is a natural place to break the content to make it more readable. a ly f ss um s f re e p. f is 't se n t e e ly g : n-entrepreneurship-chapter-i/

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ OSHA is taking credit for something it can't. There is not enough evidence to suggest that it's helped with working conditions that couldn't be attributed to anything else. http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/1995/10/v18n4-5.pdf Secondly, I never said they were going to get out of poverty by having their child working. I said that you can only have sustainable increases in a income by increasing productivity and capital. If you want to debate that fact, I will just point you in the direction of India. Thirdly, this country is rich enough that most children would not be going to work. Lastly, in developing countries that ban things like sweatshops end up with more child prostitutes and more agricultural jobs that they absolutely hate. Mostly fear mongering, but nobody really likes to look at the history or empirical data or reasons why things were they way they were.

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ James, I mostly agree with that, but the way the system is set up creates bad incentives. I'd recommend reading Public Choice Economics from Nobel Prize winner James Buchanan and Gordon Tullock.

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ I'm not finding anything by that name. Can you link to a specific article or book?

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ I am sorry. I am implied that was the name of a book. Sorry, that is actually a school of economic thought. I can recommend a few authors, and perhaps you can read about some of their books to determine which you might want to read: James Buchanan, Elinor Ostrom, George Stigler, Gary Becker, and Vernon Smith are all Nobel Prize winners. I really like Bryan Caplan and Gordon Tullock as well, though. Tullock definitely deserves a Nobel Prize, in my opinion. Him and Buchanan originated Public Choice.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Did you really suggest the choice for children to be work in a sweatshop or their only alternative is child prostitution? Or how about neither of these things. You are literally suggesting a return to 1910s labor laws where abuse of employees are a-ok, dangerous working situations and environments because OSHA might be corrupt?? Please. Just stop. Go read some of the books Muckrackers wrote that led to things like OSHA, the FDA, and workers rights The idea of returning to the corporate mindset of profits before workers because 'Free Market' is disturbing

=============================================================== From: Tyler Mittan ------------------------------------------------------ No... No, I didn't say that and I don't appreciate the straw man. I am not saying that SHOULD be the choices, but I am pointing out that in many places that try to limit sweatshops, that is typically what ends up happening. I know about the working conditions. I used to be a far, far left wing person.. until I picked up a few economic and philosophy books. The FDA doesn't even protect us. That's nonsense. And the idea that OSHA is why working conditions are better is nonsense as well. Have you read anything I posted or does your ideology forbid you from considering that maybe you're wrong?

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What do you mean return to? That is exactly the corporate mindset we live in today. Unless you consider CxO positions "workers". Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJR5xQqAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdzIkH/2Eheoi+Hix7oegB7n+u5Rv/ izCVNaQWYhspkRUvR03L4IzOz+QLWlBZyZzls8My2VjbmjPvz263qh4JirvVgREb EPexAG2XKZomvE7514VAhEGsrSjaQL69id7XEyHBD9GaIm+4wwSHt88LAeJBVBjE 2GSwbw7UprvqNagYSYuhB6GKu+ZyP589FI0kR6K2+k9h5R0xM85oOEcvz9ebjtG1 VsfD1900mjdrhSFAVxjAM3+Y5SqM1TgMZFcV1UAvWfpPXDgErCo7ukjpoLAm4KJj f1LhHHSEHYHhA2IPs/a8164itK81rb90oXd1rwWJlagQVrK67em/+a79vEyCiPU= =zFvG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Historically, we had feudalism, then the industrial revolution, now we have some form of corporatism that is often referred to as a democracy. I think each of those changes represents an overall improvement, but if we let the fine folks on Wall St continue to play their games then we will get into a lot of trouble. Again.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I just wish we could abolish the concept of a "Corporation". The whole idea of a non-human "Entity" with rights and ownership and the ability to sue and be sued.... That's not free market - that's government interference. And I'm ag'in' it! Oh, and "Intellectual Property". Such bullcrap. *- Chad W. Smith*