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Wireless routers

From: John Aldrich 
Anyone got a recommendation for a wireless router that will do DHCP 
reservations AND is DD-WRT/OpenWRT/ETC friendly?

I've found that DD-WRT supports my router. Sorta. I have to wipe the factory 
firmware and then TFTP up a new firmware, which may or may not work correctly. 
If it doesn't, I've bricked my router. Not good. :(

Thinking seriously about chucking it and getting a new router. The old Linksys 
routers were pretty user-friendly and hackable, but the newer ones since Cisco 
bought 'em seem to be designed to prevent you from doing anything besides what 
Cisco intends. :(

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ For the money it's hard to beat Asus N16. I have mine running ddwrt and doing DHCP reservations.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ For the money it's hard to beat Asus N16. I have mine running ddwrt and doing DHCP reservations. Thanks. Where does one pick up one of those? :D

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ I buy everything from amazon these days. I am a Prime member so shipping is fast and free, plus amazon has better pricing that most places.

=============================================================== From: "Alex Smith (K4RNT)" ------------------------------------------------------ Amazon? Newegg?

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ I buy everything from amazon these days. I am a Prime member so shipping is fast and free, plus amazon has better pricing that most places. Thanks, Lynn... I'm a Prime member as well... I checked and they are indeed a few bucks cheaper than just about anywhere else.

=============================================================== From: Benjamin Stewart ------------------------------------------------------ Ok, so I have to ask... if you're going to replace that router anyway, then why not try upgrading it to a decent firmware first, especially if the only issue you have with it is the firmware?

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Ok, so I have to ask... if you're going to replace that router anyway, then why not try upgrading it to a decent firmware first, especially if the only issue you have with it is the firmware? Because after looking at the instructions on, It's a heck of a lot more painful to upgrade this model than any other I've ever worked on and if everything doesn't go exactly right, I'm SOL until the new router gets here. I have to wipe the router, then hard-reset it, then TFTP a new firmware, hard-recycle it and hope it took. Besides, I'm not *positive* this particular model is supported. My router is a WRT54GS*2* and the firmware on is for the WRT54GS (no "2"). Now I'm not convinced there's no difference between a WRT54GS and WRT54GS2, so before I risk bricking this router, I want a replacement in-hand. :D

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ As far as I'm aware, this is standard procedure for getting DD-WRT installed. If you're not comfortable with those steps, then you should buy a router that comes with DD-WRT. I've had good luck with the precursor to this one:

=============================================================== From: wes ------------------------------------------------------ many models have a MUCH easier installation. most of the time I use the router's built-in upgrade utility and just feed it DDWRT instead of its expected factory firmware update file. -wes

=============================================================== From: Sudo Bash ------------------------------------------------------ Using tFTPd32 is extremely easy and there are even tools that you just point to the firmware bin and click program to flash. If you brick it, I can de-brick it if it has a jtag port.

=============================================================== From: Sudo Bash ------------------------------------------------------ Even without a jtag interface, many devices can be programmed by soldering directly to the flash chip for de-bricking process.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting James Nylen : In previous Linksys routers, you didn't have to wipe the factory FLASH, you could just overwrite the existing factory ROM. Now, apparently, Cisco has taken steps to make it more difficult to put in a bad or non-standard ROM, such that if it doesn't have the right checksum, the firmware will refuse to allow you to flash that ROM.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting wes : Exactly. Linksys *used* to allow this, but apparently since Cisco bought them out they have decided to make it more "idiot-proof" (or maybe it's in response to folks like us who don't care much for the factory ROM) and now according to what I read on the DD-WRT site, you can't just use the built-in upgrade utility. Cisco in their infinite wisdom, has apparently decided to install some sort of checksum validation to prevent either bad or 3rd-party ROMs from being installed, so you reportedly can no longer use the built-in upgrader. :(

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Sudo Bash : And how many consumer-grade routers have you seen with a JTAG port? I'll admit I have never opened the case on the router, but I haven't seen *any* with a JTAG port.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Sudo Bash : And for those who a) don't have the tools to solder onto the flash ROM or b) don't have the knowledge or c) don't want to waste the time/money to "de-brick" a $50 router or d) all the above????

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ john has a point. It shouldn't be this difficult in the 21st century to use a custom firmware. Yes many people on the list can route around. Just as some on the list have the tools to unweld the hood of a car if they start that nonsense. Doesn't mean we should have to deal with the aggravation. ----- Original Message -----

=============================================================== From: Sudo Bash ------------------------------------------------------ Not hard or time consuming to JTAG and many units have JTAG interfaces, but most of this flash chips will be SPI so you can always solder to them and flash. I go to great lengths to recover bricked hardware for experience regardless of the price of the unit, sorry to hear that this is a dying hobby... It's the same with most hardware repairs, why fix when you can buy new??? Answer: Because I can fix it for less than buying new? I've fixed multiple motherboards by replacing $1.50 capacitors (many times for free) just to see someone's face light up when it works again... I was offering expertise and devices, I've even manage to create a JTAG Programmer for $15 out of a MinimusAVR so I don't want to hear about JTAG programmer prices (You can make one)

=============================================================== From: Sudo Bash ------------------------------------------------------ If you would like to use my devices sometime I am totally down with it. I can make you an un-buffered parallel JTAG programmer for free you can have, or I can give you the instructions on turning the MinimusAVR into a Buffered USB JTAG Programmer. Just thought the idea of a local Linux users group was to help support each other...

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ The wireless router I have now is fine, but I was thinking I'd like to have a wireless router with external antennas so I can maybe fine-tune the signal strength a bit (i.e. virtually NO signal going out the back wall of my house and LOTS of signal going INTO my house.) Is that something that's possible using a wireless router with external antennas, even if I have to get replacment 3rd-party antennas for the router?

=============================================================== From: Andrew Rodgers ------------------------------------------------------ Just get yourself one of these. $80 and you'll cover your whole backyard. Andrew

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Andrew Rodgers : Thanks, Andrew... but that's what I'm trying to AVOID! :D I don't want my neighbors banging on my wi-fi trying to guess the password. :) I want to -just- cover the interior of my house. Since my router is currently on an exterior wall, I figure the signal has to be hemispherical, so there's a lot of wasted signal strength that could be better used if it were directionalized. :)

=============================================================== From: Andrew Rodgers ------------------------------------------------------ Haha, I read that as you describing the problem, rather than the solution. carry on. The problem with directional antennae any more is if you have a 3x3 MIMO device, you need to get decent signal on all three radios to achieve maximum performance. Some of the APs with internal antennae will use 9-12 elements, only enabling the ones with best signal strength to your devices. Somewhat automagically providing what you seek.

=============================================================== From: Mitch Tuck ------------------------------------------------------ Another option would be to put wire mesh behind your router. Create like a faraday cage. Chicken wire would work world be ugly.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Andrew Rodgers : Gotcha. If I had an external antenna, though, could I not replace it with a semi-directional antenna so that I get an elongated oval shape pointing towards the interior of the house or would it just be better to use some aluminum foil and create a semi-circle behind my existing router? :)

=============================================================== From: Andrew Rodgers ------------------------------------------------------ Is pretty close to what you want. However, for a newer router, you'd need 3 of them.

=============================================================== From: Andrew Rodgers ------------------------------------------------------ If you do use aluminum foil make sure you place it at least a half wave length away. The closer to an even divisor of the wavelength, the better the performance.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:00:30 -0500 John Aldrich wrote: So I just installed two Ubiquiti UniFi APs, and I've gotta sing the praises: You can get the more expensive APs with the external antennas (some of which are also weather hardened for exterior mounting), or you can get the $70 APs with internal antenna, or the 3-pack for $200. I got two of the cheaper ones, and then discovered that this is what work uses as well. They come without Ethernet cables, so you'll want either a handful of cables or some Cat5e or Cat6 and a crimp tool, and you'll need two cables for each AP, one to the POE injector, one from the POE injector to the AP. You'll also need a computer to run the configuration software on *and*, if you're going to run a guest network, apparently you'll need to keep that server running so that you can do individually authenticated logins and all the other grooviness you'd want. If you're just doing single password and WPA1/2, you can configure and forget. The software is available for Mac, Windows and Linux. I run it as Java on my Linux server. It is kinda awesome to have the control panel for my network laid out on a Google Maps snapshot. People have complained about the POE being non-standard. I don't have enough devices to know. It works, you get little boxes with two Ethernet jacks and place to plug in a power cord, and the power cord (so they're not wall-warts, you have a short power cord). They are substantially more powerful than my Zyxel ZTE300 router. The v3 beta software (which I run) allows hot-switching between APs with the same SSID. This coupled with WiFi calling on our cell phones is the reason we got this solution, and I could probably do a little more power fine tuning, but when I carry my phone out to the workshop there's a second or two of garbling while the phone gets out of range and the system decides to switch, but my WiFi calling isn't dropped. Mounting is provided for wall mounts, including a backing plate for mounting on acoustic ceiling tiles. Basically: I plugged 'em in, I installed the software, I wired them up, and they gave me seamless coverage between house and workshop, quite a bit more range per AP than my previous solution did, and the system was quite easy to configure *even* while I can see that there's all sorts of ability to tweak and prod and manage a much bigger network. And the damned things are just $70 a pop. Dan

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:13:56 -0500 John Aldrich wrote: So I just sent a longer post on how much I love my Ubiquiti UniFi APs, but you could do this with a multiple AP solution by turning down the power on the exterior ones... Personally, the more I learn about BGP routing attacks and the various places there are extant MitM attacks going on, the more I'm thinking that building my networks so that *everything* is encrypted machine-to-machine is the way to go: SSH tunnels even on local nets. Dan

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ These work. Really. They really do.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 +15 or so. Stop it with the integrated "wireless routers". Use a wired router to route packets, and hang an AP off the wire. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSj61rAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdISYH/289fByAUks3mNmUonqriDgR 01pHIwbgss6uiLbmJ+7u5eyIOaaWwHDwNqFlZZmdxpd9tNWHbRnnBI5PckZUjG1M 8xo5bywRpG3cBPWTvAE4HdH76aiK1c0I/mHwaeZFt/8dq30Uok0Y2FqC/XOHoPyy ejo/t6RSYf5PEGalimQqSeBTxpzWL6x4eS9h2XShQ4tfSayzy7tuFEsqLqQjfK/a NFR/srPXnrmCWD430CLwiL2yJdXiG+3fh0Zt/IIvyuk+A5DkwSmZczyr6A7oG20R eOQPpGPqhPyTLijq17pc56ITJUmghH4UYRPP+QokTkGPqMWsKRxeTTGj/OBVuzw= =yEr/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Oh, what you really want then, is Anti-Wifi paint. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSj65nAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdFJ8H/2q2IPKw7FkdVRc9zaooECZ3 Pxha6/3DqdtbNqb5R5jiL1/MLLmJR54fNOEIqAXEITckxAOmblIaezuUoI+LkjwG jklNSYDdHkFTEQWUyAvGhvhNZIGHRevBNcI+X3EZwjX7+L8yAxEemIXyxCvem+PQ ozLTDRsY/tyCWynkBM5ea4Rt5tJpA5uBfvg/M4a71M2l4Km4DR3fkkEJ/hqfj9+S 6VuI7QEstjZjpRadFHCSHso1Vt1WXOUMVfr2jrZwra75Oi+6vAJqr/1KjKkoWIZ4 QVkdbWWlrVrlcLUjZ8Bx9ur/FiUqt+6Yvu9tPvtFvILIu0LOIYhLJFOb+eczdSo= =4OJ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Ed King ------------------------------------------------------ =0A=0A>Oh, what you really want then, is Anti-Wifi paint.=0A=0Awill this wo= rk: =A0 =A0

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The hardware is nice (same as Engenius) and the software is coming along quite nicely! Correct, the controller software doesn't need to run in most small use cases. If you need a captive portal, you will need to run the controller always. $dayjob has been using them for a few months. I haven't done an install yet, but I plan on using a debian VM for the next install I do. The software is a little flakey on Windows. I would love to find out these issues are not replicated while running Linux :) They are non-standard, so we *have* to use their ugly, bulky ass warts for PoE. Most of use doing any substantial PoE deployments (phones, cameras, access points) prefer to use a PoE switch, and not have to involve multiple cables and extra warts for our equipment. Most server rooms are tight enough as it is! I have yet to see a "wifi router" of any flavor that can match up signal strength to Engenius/UBT hardware. That's good to know! I can consider these for other deployments as well... haven't had the opportunity to test voice while switching yet! They are quite nice. I'm actually following another discussion amongst "temporary" network operators (think InterOP, other event type networking) discussing several brands of controller based WiFi Products, and this UBT system (plus the multi-site controller configs) are apparently hanging with these guys the same as Meraki/Cisco/Rukkus, etc. If they continue to innovate on the software side, and continue to offer the controller at no additional cost, they could really be onto something here.... Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSj7IyAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdj3sH/1IUKsq6R3LnbpeXxrZShUlK 4/jmeraCZDvnMBQHBJdPatY1wD/Y92gJTble3ERTP0RO8lElgz1ggXqbRG/2OPOC dN3619fkP0rI20Y2toZWziFs/eBpNTqw6Bl7wipQsZumbLIt6CD2cgh92sZfnyjA /0S/6mzp6vuSkk8A+yHBRd4KVtT5pu1i3KM1lrnbRng3/u9NIhDMaUiSO4Haj/Tq 8fh1v0lAhYYEg4gQzs/fvX6H02Ea4osQqiNUCVmuCRoF70J+tZFwInZMU/ecrz0q fg/PWJiWkKTx409XYPpPXCJfa3JxOOGzzwE/qHbG9T4HuJ0pJ2f53xNaa2hSf+8= =DKoi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Andrew Rodgers : Two questions...first, where does one find out the wavelength of the radio signal and second, if you're using a multi-band radio, does that mean multiple wavelengths?

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Mike Harrison : Nifty. I'm assuming if you don't have an external antenna (most "modern" consumer-grade WiFi routers don't these days) you'd just stick it off the back of the router an inch or so?

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ WARNING: SMARTASS ANSWER FOLLOWS: 2.4GHz is used for WiFi because it's the unlicensed frequency space set aside for microwave ovens. You could either use arithmetic, light and therefore radio waves travel at 299,792,458 meters per second, divide by 2.4 billion, you get .1249blablabla meters, or just under 4 3/4", or you could derive it experimentally: Dan

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Dave Brockman : That'd work. Probably overkill for what I want. I'd probably have to paint all the exterior-facing walls with that. :) I figure if I "aim" my wifi signal kinda diagonally across the house from my computer room to the living room, that oughta limit exposure to my neighbors. I live in a bit of a horseshoe-shaped sub division and I'm in the bottom of the "U". I figure if I aim it just right, I'll go BEHIND one neighbor's house and have really low signal levels towards the neighbor on the other side. :)

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ It's written in Java, so expect some flakiness.... But seriously, haven't had any problems yet with the controller software, have had to reboot one AP, but that was hooked up to a ratsnest of home-made wires I haven't zip-tied in place yet, so that could have been my problem. It occurs to me that I might be able to do a little better by dialing back the power on my house router so the switch to the workshop happens sooner. My Dad has also expressed interest in a Skype capable solution for his spread, which is several acres. If I could set him up with WiFi handsets (apparently Verizon is choking his ability to run Skype on his Android phone even on WiFi) and some directional APs on various outbuildings he'd be intrigued... Yeah, I'm super impressed by the "just works" factor, and that (unlike the control panel for most ADSL2+ modem router combos) even though all the knobs are there, for the most part you don't have to deal with the complexity unless you really want to go there. Dan

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ Probably create more noise then signal. the trick is those parabolas are the right length from the antenna and follow it's shape. But it'd cost almost nada to try. I used extra heavy heavy duty aluminum foil on posterboard with spray on contact cement. File folders, etc.. would all work well. Dan's reporting good results with the Ubiquity's.. My Asus works well, right smack in the middle of the house and no nearby neighbors.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Meh, I freely give my neighbors Wifi with an open SSID. They just get routed across two 2500 routers connected via back-to-back T1 cabling. I'm even nice enough to bond two of them together. I figure with 175 I can spare 3. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSj9M5AAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdZ4gH/Rse/Mys/v3Ts9zZW4TUoSgy ZAMkizrUCdsgtBLxMN0W8iXGF110Wt4H8fG7phiM+9Y7a0Wb+JGMsiHR4PHI8Q30 i98N40RNkJBJHkO2nNBMTNF8maJlQfVPJzwRVzInheiysLMX6WjaMsf1RfNXYgjw /ThDwwqFfy33tDCgFK/MrV3bnH+JvPPb/aJmc1nEMDCpBac29UOr9ko5v87D9xql e2DoMQmNiRr0XeLbVCK3Yw3RvKr8SuAVUe0irB5yICwzd368DB/Zi0j4wInXcPn3 oT0G1icJk+dQZOfjVwN1aJ3/boPZvw9neXzpd7cv3vMyEX48VgX0xQy9lMjQgZM= =k3OA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Right here is why I love this list. In the same thread, I get a way to try to solve my wifi issues for If you do use aluminum foil make sure you place it at least a half wave

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:37:53 -0500, John Aldrich wrote: 1. wavelength = 300 / frequency in MHz 2. yes. however there might be a harmonic on the other that can be used.

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ Make yourself a decorative wall mat(faraday cage) out of this.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ What's the best wireless router for the average consumer these days? What's the best place to get one?

=============================================================== From: wes ------------------------------------------------------ Apple Airport Extreme, at the Apple store. -wes

=============================================================== From: Phil Sieg ------------------------------------------------------ Give this a try: Phil Sieg President SeniorTech LLC / snapfōn® Phone: 423.535.9968 Fax: 423.265.9820 Mobile: 423.331.0725 "The computer is the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with. It's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds." Steve Jobs, 1955-2011

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Which one of these turds smells the least offensive? Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSn7vTAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcd58QH/RgWz7qVmw6h150wq/k3lOPp Ahj16rXJMAWvfwvFHGbR4CE4t1CzjgpuJ8EJANA+/R8+zcX4LmNSwILpelh1o3dc vPkyU+OY/9ivpQPmMf+eaYjmsKkydyQZsb0N232SXGnMjZTrkBq07x1mtdJfSCbN T8rbcAnVd0ii9nRMf5cvJlE2iL2lewdNzw7IcKUrM/iUYOvGnr7nCBiOMEkyOP1I ceo+BDCQWhIvr9X5mci4lALElxhOIYszvtWqhXolzZj33mXnhW/t+lELbw3ewtbA WEh0oy3QaGTbxriWZYUAKZG1XakkNXmnK/jvEAZmV30Lg0/RDvCxyuhvW6srnUc= =hhXl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:00:02 -0500 John Aldrich wrote: I am really groovin' on these Ubiquiti UniFi APs... Dan

=============================================================== From: Nick Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Dlink for the win!

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Are these good for the "average Joe or Jane" who may be reasonably "clueful" about technology, even if they aren't "geeks"?

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:20:01 -0500 John Aldrich wrote: If you can run a Java app as a web server: Yes (and note that on Ubuntu this was a line in my /etc/apt/sources, and an apt-get install). If your SSID is still the default that your DSL modem shipped with, probably not. And if you need things like a guest network with a captive portal, you need a server running. But if you just want an AP on your net, you only need to run the config software for setup. Dan

=============================================================== From: Jonathan Calloway ------------------------------------------------------ What about SkyDog? Jonathan Calloway Sent from my iPad

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ NETGEAR WNR3500L-100NAR Wireless-N Router RangeMax Opensource with USB IEEE 802.11b/g/n, IEEE 802.3/3u/3ab Runs dd-wrt great. They have deals and rebates that can drop the price to under $25. --b

=============================================================== From: Know Juan ------------------------------------------------------ Living in an area that has fast internet, you'll want one that can take advantage of it - check out

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ If I read this right the netgear will handle gigabit speeds. Not sure about the N900. That write doesn't explicitly state if it does.

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ Anyone used an Asus N-66U? I'm looking for a router than can do 3G WAN with my Verizon USB 3G stick, but has good coverage. This is for when I go camping. The last unit I bought sucks in a big way. Jeff.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ Have one at home, the latest firmware load was a significant improvement in features of an already good unit. I see the functionality on the menus for using the USB port for a USB cell modem, but have not used it for that yet. I know people overseas that use it, and the USB GPRS modem is their only home internet connection.

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ in features of an already good unit. cell modem, but have not used it for that yet. I know people overseas that use it, and the USB GPRS modem is their only home internet connection. Thanks for the review. Looks like a decent investment. Probably won't use 90% of the features but nice to know they are there if I need them.

=============================================================== From: Unkmar ------------------------------------------------------ And I don't believe they play nice with Apple extremes?

=============================================================== From: Unkmar ------------------------------------------------------ I've actually heard of several devices that don't play with Apple Airport routers.

=============================================================== From: Phil Sieg ------------------------------------------------------ I am an Apple fan-boy and I HATE the Airport routers. Total piece of = SH!T. Rule #1: If it cant have DDWRT or OPEN-WRT flashed to it, do not buy it. Phil Sieg President SeniorTech LLC / snapf=C5=8Dn=C2=AE Phone: 423.535.9968 Fax: 423.265.9820 Mobile: 423.331.0725 "The computer is the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with. = It's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds." Steve Jobs, 1955-2011 Airport routers.

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ don't know why but I see a lot of PC users with Airports. On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 02:23:50 -0500, Phil Sieg wrot= e: t. . =

=============================================================== From: Benjamin Stewart ------------------------------------------------------ I know of one such PC user, and it's for the iTunes streaming feature. : .