Drupal:Zen like themes without Ruby?

From: Rod-Lists 
I really like the idea of building drupal themes with CSS.
But I found out to use Zen I need Sass & compass, both Ruby Gems.
No offense to Ruby users, while my wife might use it since apparently ruby is on macs, I don't to learn another language at the moment.

Found out about Less. Any other options?

=============================================================== From: Lee Walker ------------------------------------------------------ less & Sass are both good things to learn. One isn't pulling out ahead of the other (yet) and I see both used a lot. Learn one (or both) it'll do you good :D It's not a language to learn, just a way to making CSS better. I am personally leaning towards Sass & Compass a lot more these days. But I still use less when it's included in themes I'm manipulating. And Sass has a quote on it's website "The only thing easier, is making fun of Internet Explorer!" -- Steve Balmer

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ The sass compiler runs on ruby, you don't write any ruby to use it. To run the compiler for less, you'll need to install node.js, so you're going to have to wind up installing *something* regardless of which one you use. Just install ruby and rubygems from your package manager and run "gem install sass" and you're done.

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Actually, do "gem install compass". I didn't see the part about compass. Compass will install the relevant version of sass for you.

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ We use sass and haml. Both are *awesome*.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Why use less or sass instead of mucking around with template.php? ----- Lee Walker wrote:

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Found Stylus. http://learnboost.github.com/stylus/ And some others listed here. http://www.catswhocode.com/blog/8-css-preprocessors-to-speed-up-development-time ----- Lee Walker wrote:

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah, there's several of them. I haven't used stylus (I use less for node stuff), but it looks like how the old sass syntax used to work, if that means anything to anybody. I don't know much about drupal, but does template.php "do stuff" every time a request is made to the server? The CSS preprocessor should only generate the CSS once, when a deployment/change has been made to your sass/less/whatever stylesheets. sass and less are just CSS3 with extra functionality. Variables, selector nesting/inheritance, extra functions, stylesheet compilation, etc.

=============================================================== From: Lee Walker ------------------------------------------------------ Less and Sass are CSS pre-processors. template.php is for manipulation of drupal hooks, ie content - not layout. You don't do any CSS in template.php If you do, you're doing it wrong... very wrong.

=============================================================== From: Lisa Ridley ------------------------------------------------------ We use Zen Responsive as a base theme almost exclusively for Drupal 7 = sites, especially if a client is looking for a responsive theme, and = don't touch SASS or Less because our front end guys are pretty = sufficient at both HTML5 and CSS3. You can use it as a base theme = without either. layout. wrote: lot. days. But I Steve Balmer wrote: apparently ruby

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Thanks Lisa. That was helpful no matter which direction I go, it is good to know I can start with Zen. ----- Lisa Ridley wrote:

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Unless you're just modifying themes, you should really pickup sass or less. Helps you from writing really verbose CSS.

=============================================================== From: Lee Walker ------------------------------------------------------ I always sub theme in Drupal. Saves a *lot* of effort. I'm a 100% Omega Theme guy. In Drupal 8 all the themes will be responsive out the box. Zen has always been very well documented in the source. Omega is the most popular responsive theme by far. And has a cool toolkit around it too. They are all good. Take some time to look, and pick one. If the theme you pick uses Less or Sass, then use whatever that base theme does. Else don't worry about it too much. Less and Sass are good things to know, but unless your base theme uses it, it'll be hard to crowbar it in. So your base theme will pick it for you, Less, Sass, or standard CSS.

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ It's not really hard. At all. Literally just changing the file extension will do it, and having sass watch for changes in way that fits your workflow. But, if you're just modifying a theme, there's almost no point to it unless you plan on making a lot of changes. As far as themes go, I mostly implement designs from mockups on top of foundation or twitter bootstrap. I did, however, move a purchased theme to sass over into into a rails project, and sass caught a *really* subtle syntax issue with one of the stylesheets. So, there's that.

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Just a note on top of that to be less confusing. CSS is interchangeable with less and sass, but less and sass are not interchangeable with each other. So, if you had a theme with plain old css stylesheets, you'd be golden, but if they're less or sass, you're pretty much stuck with their less or sass stylesheets. You could compile them, and probably work from that. Mostly depends on what's going on in your solution stack. But, it's not really worth it unless you *really *had to.