[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Tyler Mittan flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 23:31:22 UTC 2013


Stephen,

I am pretty sure everyone knows that it's a boom. It's an investment like
anything else. Nobody is treating it like it's going to be a replacement
currency.. Not until the government says it's fine to be legal (it won't).
The point is not even to REPLACE the dollar. The point is to have multiple
currencies competing. You really should read George Selgin and Larry White.
They're not Austrians, they believe in all the traditional methodology, but
their work on free banking is great. They also clear up a lot of
misconceptions people have of free banking.

As of right now, bitcoin is a form of money just as credit is also a form
of money. It's not physical, nor does it have to be. Just like credit cards
and checking accounts are nonphysical, but still considered money.
On Aug 22, 2013 7:26 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Treat it for what it is: A way to make a short term profit, but not read
> into it as some big magical currency that is going to replace all other
> currencies.
>
> Also: Show me how I'm on a useless witch hunt? I made arguments, my points
> were hardly invalid (despite being told that I 'just didn't understand' and
> 'You are not looking at the big picture'), and I thought we were just
> having a discussion.
>
> I may be a smug asshole, but I didn't personally attack anyone, I was as
> friendly as possible.
>
> My main fear is that someone will invest too much into bitcoins, and when
> the crash does come it'll be bad. And it will come.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Aaron Welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Missed the point again...  Lost interest in explaining and done banging
>> my head against the wall.
>>
>> -AW
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron, I just noticed your post about WoW.
>>
>> Guess how you pay for your monthly fees in WoW? If you want to buy
>> something in WoW (illegally, since even Blizzard has even made it clear
>> that exchanging real currency for something in game is not cool)
>>
>> Either way, Blizzard and their virtual economies worth is still set in
>> the USD Blizzard can make out of it, not in the Gold value in the virtual
>> economy, and while the virtual economy will of course have exchange rates
>> similar to a real one, its a jump to say that somehow its eventually going
>> to filter into real life and I can use my Blizzard Gold to buy the tank of
>> fuel I need to get to Blizzon. Blizzard has made it pretty clear you are
>> free to spend your money IN THE GAME. You are NOT free to take the money
>> out of the game.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen, the sad part of your "argument" against BTC is that you are in
>>> fact pointing out more examples of how NEW currencies are formed.  Think
>>> about this, World of Warcraft uses VIRTUAL currency with no value outside
>>> of the game to transfer wealth (to the tune of $3 BILLION dollars) from
>>> first to third world economies in Asia.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://utopianist.com/2011/04/world-of-warcrafts-virtual-economy-worth-3-billion-in-non-virtual-dollars/
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_economy
>>>
>>> Say what you want about BTC, this sh!t is real and it is here to stay.
>>>  The value is the only thing that will change.
>>>
>>> -AW
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>
>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me,
>>>> but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>
>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency
>>>> accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among
>>>> a select group
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>
>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing
>>>>> currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money.
>>>>> This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not
>>>>> everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is
>>>>> propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what
>>>>> the government forces banks to accept and because people think the
>>>>> government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>>>>>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay
>>>>>> with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Chad,
>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a
>>>>>>> medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use
>>>>>>> it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>>>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to
>>>>>>>> keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy
>>>>>>>> it while it lasts."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and
>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out
>>>>>>>>>>> how to devalue it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <
>>>>>>>>>>> dbmchone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums
>>>>>>>>>>>> it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without
>>>>>>>>>>>> fully understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses
>>>>>>>>>>>> want, or a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s
>>>>>>>>>>>> and only led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government
>>>>>>>>>>>> manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and
>>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous market fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of
>>>>>>>>>>>> markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers like the Internet Archive already give that option to their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employees. In other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that. In order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those employees that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in sandwiches, water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payments if you're an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historically try to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control of something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bittorrent has been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authorities... does it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often this happens, from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what's happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business as usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoin and another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Aaron Welch
>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>> 423-505-9999
>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>
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