[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 22:37:25 UTC 2013

No, I must not Chad, because all the Economics majors are over here rolling
on the ground and laughing.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Um I am NOT talking about some sort of "let them eat cake" thing.  I am
> talkng about Rich People being Personally Responsible for the results of
> their "Corporation's! Actions.   You really really don't get this
> On Aug 22, 2013 4:56 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to point out your whole argument about corporations is
>> INCREDIBLY silly Chad.
>> Mainly because it assumes, based of your argument, that the only way to
>> not have corporations is to live in a society of anarchy, because the
>> instant a government is formed, WOAH LOOKOUT! Here comes corporations!
>> The BP Oil spill? That was a corporation that failed to heed regulations
>> on equipment inspections and safety. Are you kidding me with that argument?
>> Also, the Romans realized, even way back then, that 'Personal
>> Responsibility' is utter bullshit, and issues a grain stipend to the
>> general public, because a starving, underpaid, overworked public means one
>> thing: civil wars and rebellion.
>> I mean, what you just wrote up is literally what got King Louis of France
>> beheaded.
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You are mission the point.  A corporation is an invention of the
>>> government, not of the free market.  Yes, in a free market people can work
>>> together.  But in a truly free market, they couldn't hide behind some "I
>>> didn't do that, the corporation did that!" bs.  A human being built the car
>>> that had glue under the gas pedal.  A human being designed it that way.  A
>>> human being safety inspected it (alledgely) and a human being sold it.
>>>  Those human beings should be held responsible for the results of their
>>> actions.  Not hide behind some fictional "Entity" called a corporation.
>>> The BP oil spill?  That was a human who did that.  A human being is
>>> resposible for that - NOT a "Corporation".  Corporations are a fiction that
>>> we all (or most of us) just willingly accept as truth.
>>> If there was a Free Market - along with Personal Responsibility (the
>>> other side of the "Yes, Mr. Obama, I really DID 'build that'." coin) - then
>>> you wouldn't need government interference.  Standard laws that apply to any
>>> human being (don't kill, don't steal, don't harm, etc.) would still be
>>> around and enforcable.  In fact, they'd be far more enforcable than they
>>> are today, because - as the law currently recognizes it - so much harm is
>>> done by "Corporations" who cannot be jailed, or killed, or punished in any
>>> way other than fines.
>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> Well you are right about one thing at least: Money's intrensic value is
>>>> not a physical item, its set by consumer and producer demand.
>>>> Which is ironically why Bitcoin will never be a MAJOR currency or a
>>>> replacement for the Dollar.
>>>> I never said it couldn't be a currency, see my previous reference to
>>>> trading sea shells for cash and giving them a value, technically that makes
>>>> them a currency, but the value of my sea shell currency is still hard set
>>>> on how many USD I can get for the value of my sea shell, which might
>>>> fluctuate depending on how many sea shells I have.
>>>> Its therefore a currency. Not a good one, but a currency.
>>>> Chad:
>>>> They WERE a corporation. Competing in a market. By driving every other
>>>> competitor out of the market via either hostile buyouts or threats.
>>>> In a free market, as you suggest, who is to tell these guys that they
>>>> cannot do such thing? How do we keep a large, extremely profitable business
>>>> from simply destroying all other businesses that compete with them? We
>>>> can't regulate them, that would defeat the whole point of a free market.
>>>> Innovation? They could just steal an innovative idea. See Thomas Edison
>>>> for a good example of a man who basically bought peoples ideas, paid them
>>>> nearly nothing for them, claimed them as his own, and then drove them out
>>>> of the market.
>>>> There is no such thing as a free market, its like saying having a game
>>>> of chess, but everything is fair game.
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> There has a lot been said since I last checked so I haven't been
>>>>> keeping up, but I do think that this nonsense about REAL, PHYSICAL things
>>>>> is nonsense. Money is not all real, physical things.. Not unless you think
>>>>> a credit card swipe is somehow valuable. All credit is a transfer of, not
>>>>> funds, but credit it. It's really just a mark in a ledger. It is only when
>>>>> the bank goes to the other bank that it is fulfilled. It's virtually a
>>>>> credit.
>>>>> It strikes me as odd for someone who is so anti-gold standard to make
>>>>> claims like this which are so pro-gold standard it hurts.
>>>>> Second, value is subjective (you can think Menger and the Austrians
>>>>> who found this concept in which all modern day economics is built on except
>>>>> socialists). NOTHING IS INTRINSICALLY VALUABLE. It seems like this is
>>>>> something we all agree on. Given that money is not necessarily a physical
>>>>> thing, and that value is subjective, we can see how bitcoin could be
>>>>> considered money if valued by enough people.
>>>>> Now that we've established that, we should look at why bitcoin is not
>>>>> widely accepted which I mentioned before:
>>>>> 1. People don't know about it. Economists and computer geeks, but if
>>>>> you were to ask the average, say, psychology student whom has not interest
>>>>> in politics whatsoever (and there are plenty) or virtually anyone else,
>>>>> they most likely wouldn't know about it.. this begs the question: even if
>>>>> they did know about it, would they want it?
>>>>> 2. They might. The underlying point of me posting this was to show
>>>>> that competing currencies could be a thing. They could be a thing that work
>>>>> very well (as they have historically.. look up Richard Timberlake, Lawrence
>>>>> White, and George Selgin). We can't say for sure if bitcoins would be a
>>>>> very valuable thing, but we do know that it's getting very popular.. this
>>>>> begs the question, if it's so popular, why aren't businesses buying it?
>>>>> 3. This can be answered mostly by the fact that the legality of it is
>>>>> iffy at best. It can also be answered that people trust the backing of a
>>>>> government (whom obviously have a pretty poor track record, but people
>>>>> don't know better).
>>>>> So, there's no reason to think that bitcoins can't be money. I am not
>>>>> saying they are widely accepted. I am not saying if they were legal that
>>>>> they even would be widely accepted. I am saying that competing currencies
>>>>> can, and should, be a thing to keep the dollar honest.
>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 5:05 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> John...that is called the exchange rate. It really doesn't make
>>>>>> bitcoins any more legitimate as a REPLACEMENT for the USD or as even a
>>>>>> strong competitor.
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:53 PM, John Aldrich <jmaldrich at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>>> Quoting Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>  Its funny that, Aaron a good comparison.
>>>>>>>> Because if I sell something on Ebay, I set a price in USD.
>>>>>>>> And if paypal doesn't give my bank my USD, I get cross
>>>>>>>>  Yes, that's true, Stephen... but if someone in, say, Germany,
>>>>>>> wants to buy what you're selling, they will pay you via PayPal in
>>>>>>> DeutschMarks, which Paypal will CONVERT to $USD. Or if you want to buy
>>>>>>> something for your VW from someone in Germa ny, they are likely selling in
>>>>>>> DM, and you will pay in $USD, but THEY will receive DM from PayPal.
>>>>>>> Similarly, in theory, PayPal could start accepting Bitcoins and then
>>>>>>> convert them to $USD or whatever currency, or just bank them like you do
>>>>>>> with your local currency.
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