[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 22:35:04 UTC 2013

Um I am NOT talking about some sort of "let them eat cake" thing.  I am
talkng about Rich People being Personally Responsible for the results of
their "Corporation's! Actions.   You really really don't get this
On Aug 22, 2013 4:56 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd like to point out your whole argument about corporations is INCREDIBLY
> silly Chad.
> Mainly because it assumes, based of your argument, that the only way to
> not have corporations is to live in a society of anarchy, because the
> instant a government is formed, WOAH LOOKOUT! Here comes corporations!
> The BP Oil spill? That was a corporation that failed to heed regulations
> on equipment inspections and safety. Are you kidding me with that argument?
> Also, the Romans realized, even way back then, that 'Personal
> Responsibility' is utter bullshit, and issues a grain stipend to the
> general public, because a starving, underpaid, overworked public means one
> thing: civil wars and rebellion.
> I mean, what you just wrote up is literally what got King Louis of France
> beheaded.
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are mission the point.  A corporation is an invention of the
>> government, not of the free market.  Yes, in a free market people can work
>> together.  But in a truly free market, they couldn't hide behind some "I
>> didn't do that, the corporation did that!" bs.  A human being built the car
>> that had glue under the gas pedal.  A human being designed it that way.  A
>> human being safety inspected it (alledgely) and a human being sold it.
>>  Those human beings should be held responsible for the results of their
>> actions.  Not hide behind some fictional "Entity" called a corporation.
>> The BP oil spill?  That was a human who did that.  A human being is
>> resposible for that - NOT a "Corporation".  Corporations are a fiction that
>> we all (or most of us) just willingly accept as truth.
>> If there was a Free Market - along with Personal Responsibility (the
>> other side of the "Yes, Mr. Obama, I really DID 'build that'." coin) - then
>> you wouldn't need government interference.  Standard laws that apply to any
>> human being (don't kill, don't steal, don't harm, etc.) would still be
>> around and enforcable.  In fact, they'd be far more enforcable than they
>> are today, because - as the law currently recognizes it - so much harm is
>> done by "Corporations" who cannot be jailed, or killed, or punished in any
>> way other than fines.
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> Well you are right about one thing at least: Money's intrensic value is
>>> not a physical item, its set by consumer and producer demand.
>>> Which is ironically why Bitcoin will never be a MAJOR currency or a
>>> replacement for the Dollar.
>>> I never said it couldn't be a currency, see my previous reference to
>>> trading sea shells for cash and giving them a value, technically that makes
>>> them a currency, but the value of my sea shell currency is still hard set
>>> on how many USD I can get for the value of my sea shell, which might
>>> fluctuate depending on how many sea shells I have.
>>> Its therefore a currency. Not a good one, but a currency.
>>> Chad:
>>> They WERE a corporation. Competing in a market. By driving every other
>>> competitor out of the market via either hostile buyouts or threats.
>>> In a free market, as you suggest, who is to tell these guys that they
>>> cannot do such thing? How do we keep a large, extremely profitable business
>>> from simply destroying all other businesses that compete with them? We
>>> can't regulate them, that would defeat the whole point of a free market.
>>> Innovation? They could just steal an innovative idea. See Thomas Edison
>>> for a good example of a man who basically bought peoples ideas, paid them
>>> nearly nothing for them, claimed them as his own, and then drove them out
>>> of the market.
>>> There is no such thing as a free market, its like saying having a game
>>> of chess, but everything is fair game.
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> There has a lot been said since I last checked so I haven't been
>>>> keeping up, but I do think that this nonsense about REAL, PHYSICAL things
>>>> is nonsense. Money is not all real, physical things.. Not unless you think
>>>> a credit card swipe is somehow valuable. All credit is a transfer of, not
>>>> funds, but credit it. It's really just a mark in a ledger. It is only when
>>>> the bank goes to the other bank that it is fulfilled. It's virtually a
>>>> credit.
>>>> It strikes me as odd for someone who is so anti-gold standard to make
>>>> claims like this which are so pro-gold standard it hurts.
>>>> Second, value is subjective (you can think Menger and the Austrians who
>>>> found this concept in which all modern day economics is built on except
>>>> socialists). NOTHING IS INTRINSICALLY VALUABLE. It seems like this is
>>>> something we all agree on. Given that money is not necessarily a physical
>>>> thing, and that value is subjective, we can see how bitcoin could be
>>>> considered money if valued by enough people.
>>>> Now that we've established that, we should look at why bitcoin is not
>>>> widely accepted which I mentioned before:
>>>> 1. People don't know about it. Economists and computer geeks, but if
>>>> you were to ask the average, say, psychology student whom has not interest
>>>> in politics whatsoever (and there are plenty) or virtually anyone else,
>>>> they most likely wouldn't know about it.. this begs the question: even if
>>>> they did know about it, would they want it?
>>>> 2. They might. The underlying point of me posting this was to show that
>>>> competing currencies could be a thing. They could be a thing that work very
>>>> well (as they have historically.. look up Richard Timberlake, Lawrence
>>>> White, and George Selgin). We can't say for sure if bitcoins would be a
>>>> very valuable thing, but we do know that it's getting very popular.. this
>>>> begs the question, if it's so popular, why aren't businesses buying it?
>>>> 3. This can be answered mostly by the fact that the legality of it is
>>>> iffy at best. It can also be answered that people trust the backing of a
>>>> government (whom obviously have a pretty poor track record, but people
>>>> don't know better).
>>>> So, there's no reason to think that bitcoins can't be money. I am not
>>>> saying they are widely accepted. I am not saying if they were legal that
>>>> they even would be widely accepted. I am saying that competing currencies
>>>> can, and should, be a thing to keep the dollar honest.
>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 5:05 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> John...that is called the exchange rate. It really doesn't make
>>>>> bitcoins any more legitimate as a REPLACEMENT for the USD or as even a
>>>>> strong competitor.
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:53 PM, John Aldrich <jmaldrich at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>> Quoting Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>  Its funny that, Aaron a good comparison.
>>>>>>> Because if I sell something on Ebay, I set a price in USD.
>>>>>>> And if paypal doesn't give my bank my USD, I get cross
>>>>>>>  Yes, that's true, Stephen... but if someone in, say, Germany, wants
>>>>>> to buy what you're selling, they will pay you via PayPal in DeutschMarks,
>>>>>> which Paypal will CONVERT to $USD. Or if you want to buy something for your
>>>>>> VW from someone in Germa ny, they are likely selling in DM, and you will
>>>>>> pay in $USD, but THEY will receive DM from PayPal. Similarly, in theory,
>>>>>> PayPal could start accepting Bitcoins and then convert them to $USD or
>>>>>> whatever currency, or just bank them like you do with your local currency.
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