[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 22:32:30 UTC 2013


Well then I should probably lead the science field, because its a lot of
repetitive testing over and over and over.




On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Aaron Welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:

> Stephen, take a step back from the KB and reread your MSGs.  Your saying
> the same thing over and over again.  The definition of insanity is....
>
> -AW
>
> On Aug 22, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thats right Randy...its worth $102 dollars, or the equivilent dollar
> purchase in gold.
> On Aug 22, 2013 2:45 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's worth $102, or 0.08 ounces of gold
>> http://coinmill.com/BTC_XAU.html#BTC=1. What gives it that value?
>> Scarcity and trade. Now what gives the dollar it's value? A government
>> saying is worth something and trade. Scarcity will hold up a lot better
>> than a government saying it's worth a certain amount.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking bitcoins.
>>>
>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer
>>> bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>
>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stephen,
>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually
>>>> work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in
>>>> the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
>>>> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>>>>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
>>>> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
>>>> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>>>>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
>>>> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>
>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus on
>>>> the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars only.
>>>>  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying this:
>>>>>
>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond
>>>>> the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>>>>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>
>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>>>>>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>>>>>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything
>>>>>>> about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website
>>>>>>> just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank
>>>>>>>>>>> and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid
>>>>>>>>>>> for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro
>>>>>>>>>>> in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie
>>>>>>>>>>> Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards
>>>>>>>>>>> - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they
>>>>>>>>>>> will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give
>>>>>>>>>>> you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some tokens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade places
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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