[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 22:28:07 UTC 2013


Have fun Chad:

http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/the-fantasy-of-a-pure-market/


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I guess debating isn't okay. My mistake.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Aaron Welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Linux gods, save us all!!!  Stephen will never get it.  Let us end
>> this before Cathulu comes... or we actually focus on something tangible
>> related to BTC.  I personally am fine with Stephen not getting it.  I will
>> take his share of the pie.
>>
>> -AW
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking bitcoins.
>>
>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer bill,
>> and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>
>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually
>>> work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in
>>> the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
>>> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>>>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
>>> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
>>> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>>>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
>>> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>
>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus on
>>> the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars only.
>>>  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying this:
>>>>
>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond the
>>>> word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>>>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>
>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>>>>
>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>
>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>>>>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>>>>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything
>>>>>> about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website
>>>>>> just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank
>>>>>>>>>> and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid
>>>>>>>>>> for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro
>>>>>>>>>> in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie
>>>>>>>>>> Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards
>>>>>>>>>> - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they
>>>>>>>>>> will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.
>>>>>>>>>>  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give
>>>>>>>>>> you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <cmowery at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some tokens
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade places
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Google reads my email!
>>>>>>>>
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