[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 22:13:24 UTC 2013

Asshole or not, dead cats or not - Innovation occurred.  Your statement was
that Edison stifled innovation by "stealing" ideas (that he paid for).  But
the fact is, he was paying cash money for inventions, and inventors showed
the frak up for work - and 1000 patents were filed.  (also, don't agree
with patents)

The point is, the argument that somehow Edison "stealing" the credit for
the inventions led to less innovation is bull crap.

And if you want to mock the personality of inventors - let's talk about
Tesla's bird problem.

And it was NOT a corporation that caused the BP oil spill.  CORPORATIONS DO

A HUMAN BEING, (or rather several human beings) made decisions that led to
that disaster.

Corporations are FICTIONAL ENTITIES.  That would be like blaming Santa
Claus for your lack of a Nintendo 64.  No, your parents (human beings) made
a choice, and now you are stuck with a Atari Jaguar.

*- Chad W. Smith*

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> 1. I don't frequent Reddit, nice try.
> 2. Edison, the man who paid kids to capture neighborhood pets to
> electrocute with AC to prove how terrible Tesla's electrical system was,
> cheated Tesla out of $10,000 for fixing his issues with DC, got most of his
> 'innovative' ideas from a staff of inventors he paid (poorly) and then
> patented their ideas under his own name for his company.
> I'd also point out: That 'Edison brand Incandescent Light Bulb' runs on AC.
> Ford was the poster boy for the assembly line, he was also a anti-sematic
> asshole.
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't believe in "Intellectual property" - so steal all the ideas you
>> want.
>> And vomit back all the Reddit pro-Telsa arguments you want - Thomas
>> Edison **DID** foster invention.  There were a lot of things invented in
>> Menlow Park, regardless of who did the inventing.  Innovation occurred.
>>  Just like they did in Bell Labs.  Trying to use Edison as an example of
>> stiffling innovation?  Are you mad?  He is LITERALLY the poster boy for
>> invention.  When someone has an idea, it's not a pointless Tesla Coil above
>> their heads, it's a damn Edison Brand Incandescent Light Bulb ™®©.
>> Seriously, the internet has really fried some people's brains.
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You are mission the point.  A corporation is an invention of the
>>> government, not of the free market.  Yes, in a free market people can work
>>> together.  But in a truly free market, they couldn't hide behind some "I
>>> didn't do that, the corporation did that!" bs.  A human being built the car
>>> that had glue under the gas pedal.  A human being designed it that way.  A
>>> human being safety inspected it (alledgely) and a human being sold it.
>>>  Those human beings should be held responsible for the results of their
>>> actions.  Not hide behind some fictional "Entity" called a corporation.
>>> The BP oil spill?  That was a human who did that.  A human being is
>>> resposible for that - NOT a "Corporation".  Corporations are a fiction that
>>> we all (or most of us) just willingly accept as truth.
>>> If there was a Free Market - along with Personal Responsibility (the
>>> other side of the "Yes, Mr. Obama, I really DID 'build that'." coin) - then
>>> you wouldn't need government interference.  Standard laws that apply to any
>>> human being (don't kill, don't steal, don't harm, etc.) would still be
>>> around and enforcable.  In fact, they'd be far more enforcable than they
>>> are today, because - as the law currently recognizes it - so much harm is
>>> done by "Corporations" who cannot be jailed, or killed, or punished in any
>>> way other than fines.
>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> Well you are right about one thing at least: Money's intrensic value is
>>>> not a physical item, its set by consumer and producer demand.
>>>> Which is ironically why Bitcoin will never be a MAJOR currency or a
>>>> replacement for the Dollar.
>>>> I never said it couldn't be a currency, see my previous reference to
>>>> trading sea shells for cash and giving them a value, technically that makes
>>>> them a currency, but the value of my sea shell currency is still hard set
>>>> on how many USD I can get for the value of my sea shell, which might
>>>> fluctuate depending on how many sea shells I have.
>>>> Its therefore a currency. Not a good one, but a currency.
>>>> Chad:
>>>> They WERE a corporation. Competing in a market. By driving every other
>>>> competitor out of the market via either hostile buyouts or threats.
>>>> In a free market, as you suggest, who is to tell these guys that they
>>>> cannot do such thing? How do we keep a large, extremely profitable business
>>>> from simply destroying all other businesses that compete with them? We
>>>> can't regulate them, that would defeat the whole point of a free market.
>>>> Innovation? They could just steal an innovative idea. See Thomas Edison
>>>> for a good example of a man who basically bought peoples ideas, paid them
>>>> nearly nothing for them, claimed them as his own, and then drove them out
>>>> of the market.
>>>> There is no such thing as a free market, its like saying having a game
>>>> of chess, but everything is fair game.
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> There has a lot been said since I last checked so I haven't been
>>>>> keeping up, but I do think that this nonsense about REAL, PHYSICAL things
>>>>> is nonsense. Money is not all real, physical things.. Not unless you think
>>>>> a credit card swipe is somehow valuable. All credit is a transfer of, not
>>>>> funds, but credit it. It's really just a mark in a ledger. It is only when
>>>>> the bank goes to the other bank that it is fulfilled. It's virtually a
>>>>> credit.
>>>>> It strikes me as odd for someone who is so anti-gold standard to make
>>>>> claims like this which are so pro-gold standard it hurts.
>>>>> Second, value is subjective (you can think Menger and the Austrians
>>>>> who found this concept in which all modern day economics is built on except
>>>>> socialists). NOTHING IS INTRINSICALLY VALUABLE. It seems like this is
>>>>> something we all agree on. Given that money is not necessarily a physical
>>>>> thing, and that value is subjective, we can see how bitcoin could be
>>>>> considered money if valued by enough people.
>>>>> Now that we've established that, we should look at why bitcoin is not
>>>>> widely accepted which I mentioned before:
>>>>> 1. People don't know about it. Economists and computer geeks, but if
>>>>> you were to ask the average, say, psychology student whom has not interest
>>>>> in politics whatsoever (and there are plenty) or virtually anyone else,
>>>>> they most likely wouldn't know about it.. this begs the question: even if
>>>>> they did know about it, would they want it?
>>>>> 2. They might. The underlying point of me posting this was to show
>>>>> that competing currencies could be a thing. They could be a thing that work
>>>>> very well (as they have historically.. look up Richard Timberlake, Lawrence
>>>>> White, and George Selgin). We can't say for sure if bitcoins would be a
>>>>> very valuable thing, but we do know that it's getting very popular.. this
>>>>> begs the question, if it's so popular, why aren't businesses buying it?
>>>>> 3. This can be answered mostly by the fact that the legality of it is
>>>>> iffy at best. It can also be answered that people trust the backing of a
>>>>> government (whom obviously have a pretty poor track record, but people
>>>>> don't know better).
>>>>> So, there's no reason to think that bitcoins can't be money. I am not
>>>>> saying they are widely accepted. I am not saying if they were legal that
>>>>> they even would be widely accepted. I am saying that competing currencies
>>>>> can, and should, be a thing to keep the dollar honest.
>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 5:05 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> John...that is called the exchange rate. It really doesn't make
>>>>>> bitcoins any more legitimate as a REPLACEMENT for the USD or as even a
>>>>>> strong competitor.
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:53 PM, John Aldrich <jmaldrich at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>>> Quoting Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>  Its funny that, Aaron a good comparison.
>>>>>>>> Because if I sell something on Ebay, I set a price in USD.
>>>>>>>> And if paypal doesn't give my bank my USD, I get cross
>>>>>>>>  Yes, that's true, Stephen... but if someone in, say, Germany,
>>>>>>> wants to buy what you're selling, they will pay you via PayPal in
>>>>>>> DeutschMarks, which Paypal will CONVERT to $USD. Or if you want to buy
>>>>>>> something for your VW from someone in Germa ny, they are likely selling in
>>>>>>> DM, and you will pay in $USD, but THEY will receive DM from PayPal.
>>>>>>> Similarly, in theory, PayPal could start accepting Bitcoins and then
>>>>>>> convert them to $USD or whatever currency, or just bank them like you do
>>>>>>> with your local currency.
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