[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 21:11:27 UTC 2013


It was a corporation.

A Corporation, is - by (Google's) definition - "a company or group of
people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and
recognized as such in law."

That's not a free market - that's government intrusion on a free market.
 Recognization a non-human "entity" as having rights, ownership, suablity,
etc. ... that's not free.  That's placing restrictions on the market.
 That's gaming the system.

In a truly free market, yes, people could work together in companies - but
personal responsibility, personal ownership, would never be given up for
"The Greater Good of the Corporation™" - The Company wouldn't be able to
"Own" anything.  The owner (or owners) of the company would own things.

That also means when you Toyota screws up and sends your daughter
helplessly flying off a bridge with no brakes and a glued-to-the-floor
accelator, somebody's (an actual human person) is going the frak to jail
for manslaughter.


*- Chad W. Smith*


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Explain how it wasn't a 'truly free market'
>
> Or explain how we had to have press muckrackers point out that allowing
> businesses to do whatever the hell they feel like leads to BAD things.
>
> Also, from the FAQ on BFL Website:
>
> http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/
>
> We accept PayPal, Bitcoins and Bank Transfer.
>
> PayPal has a transaction limit of $10,000 US.
>
> Bitcoins are accepted by a third party vendor that handles the exchange.
> All of our machines are sold for US Dollars.
>
> Bank Transfers can take 3 to 4 days to appear in our system. We ask that
> you send a copy of the receipt for the transfer tooffice at butterflylabs.com and
> include your order number. This will help us match your payment with your
> order. Once we confirm the payment, we will send you a confirmation email.
> There is a $550 minimum on bank transfers. So a transaction for one 5 GH/s
> machine would not be eligible for Bank Transfer.|
>
>
> Isn't it odd? A company that must believe in Bitcoins, or they wouldn't
> sell machines for mining bitcoins...only accepts USD through a third party
> bitcoin exchange?
>
> "In a gold rush, there is money in selling shovels. Cash only"
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My point is even if Stardard Oil was "true free market" (it wasn't) it
>> didn't lead to the end of the world nor the collapse of society, or even
>> our country.  So, it was a poor example of such.
>>
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> It was a joke by my friend about him comparing bartering to Bitcoins.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And yet I don't remember the section in my US History class where
>>>> people were hoarding goats and gun and burning their useless gold just to
>>>> stay warm at night.
>>>>
>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We've done Free Market.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://buttcoin.org/butterfly-labs-mini-rig-is-a-huge-broken-unstable-piece-of-shit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> btw - speaking of "Real World Machines" bought with "Real World
>>>>>> Money" - did those butterfly bitcoin mining rigs ever actually ship?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <.<
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dafrak?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would "tomorrow we all want guns?"  Being Libertarian isn't the
>>>>>>> same as being an anarchist.  How the heck would a truly free market change
>>>>>>> the world into a post apocalyptic hellscape in 4 days?  That's far dumber
>>>>>>> than spending real world money on real world machines to produce fake
>>>>>>> online money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "He's broadly right in that anything is worth the largest amount
>>>>>>>> that someone will pay for it, sorta. But that's tautological to the point
>>>>>>>> of being meaningless. During a market bubble shares in
>>>>>>>> monkeyscrotum.com were "worth" a thousand dollars each, because
>>>>>>>> people were buying and selling them for a thousand dollars, but at the same
>>>>>>>> time they were worth nothing at all because Monkeyscrotum.com was one guy
>>>>>>>> at a rented desk with a stupid idea that had no chance of actually becoming
>>>>>>>> a viable business. It had perceived value and thus trading value but no
>>>>>>>> backing."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The thing is, in all of those examples, there is *mutual demand*,
>>>>>>>> i.e., you can only trade 10 pelts for 20 bushels if the bushels-owner needs
>>>>>>>> pelts. That's the reason money (USD) is useful—there is a near-infinite
>>>>>>>> demand for it. It's also why BTC is useless—absolutely nobody has any
>>>>>>>> demand for it outside from an insignificantly tiny fringe group.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I like how those examples devolve in exactly the same way
>>>>>>>> that society would devolve if we all became libertarians. Today we want
>>>>>>>> cars, tomorrow we'll want guns, the next day we'll be offloading our
>>>>>>>> worthless gold for sheep, and by day 4 we're all hunter-gatherers desperate
>>>>>>>> for food."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From two of my economics friends. More coming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land
>>>>>>>>> mass), and 3rd in population.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chad, indeed it is:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> US population: 300 Million
>>>>>>>>>> China Population: 1.344 billion
>>>>>>>>>> World Population: 7 billion
>>>>>>>>>> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are
>>>>>>>>>> incredibly tiny.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Our country is not small.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Carry on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  I certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>>>>>>>>>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction.  For example:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Will the seller agree to an even trade?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of
>>>>>>>>>>>> his pistols?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of
>>>>>>>>>>>> corn from the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?
>>>>>>>>>>>>  So, the value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have good you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum
>>>>>>>>>>>> at which we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that
>>>>>>>>>>>> value maybe 1:1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  I need corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do
>>>>>>>>>>>> a 1:1 trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now,
>>>>>>>>>>>> here comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because
>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least 2 pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yen or pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three
>>>>>>>>>>>>> times in this exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ounces of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what I meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> establishing worth. Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> must trade in cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollar.  The CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> measure of the change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do with the value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the USD in relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monetary policy of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  If I remember my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things that determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge impact on the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these notes and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face value (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> export, they sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affects the demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes?). ANd just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants the USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Alot of times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of one currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rates, debt levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factors are what set the value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based upon the demand for his products and the costs to make those products
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (time value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buy a portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why you had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold.  That is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to go through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply like converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end pont of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in are paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for .15 BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTC, just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essence of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utility of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overthinking bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invested piwer bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoins actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parties involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are only thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  With USD the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion is absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peer-to-peer network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore the value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of saying this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backing it beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also have nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cognitive dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we say has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buy them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were in the bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you (like I paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever owning a Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs - or Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or Yugioh cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - and they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably could here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for some tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth, despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the major currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negotiable value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ought to have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars because that's what the government forces banks to accept and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because people think the government's handling of the money supply us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trustworthy because most people don't understand the political motive to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoin, even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can then launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but even THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfer to dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> station and directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is directly linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people they needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real-world money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  It won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google reads my email!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chugalug mailing list
>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chugalug mailing list
> Chugalug at chugalug.org
> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>
>
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