[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 20:46:03 UTC 2013


It was a joke by my friend about him comparing bartering to Bitcoins.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:

> And yet I don't remember the section in my US History class where people
> were hoarding goats and gun and burning their useless gold just to stay
> warm at night.
>
> *- Chad W. Smith*
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> We've done Free Market.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
>>
>>
>> http://buttcoin.org/butterfly-labs-mini-rig-is-a-huge-broken-unstable-piece-of-shit
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> btw - speaking of "Real World Machines" bought with "Real World Money" -
>>> did those butterfly bitcoin mining rigs ever actually ship?
>>>
>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <.<
>>>>
>>>> Dafrak?
>>>>
>>>> Why would "tomorrow we all want guns?"  Being Libertarian isn't the
>>>> same as being an anarchist.  How the heck would a truly free market change
>>>> the world into a post apocalyptic hellscape in 4 days?  That's far dumber
>>>> than spending real world money on real world machines to produce fake
>>>> online money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "He's broadly right in that anything is worth the largest amount that
>>>>> someone will pay for it, sorta. But that's tautological to the point of
>>>>> being meaningless. During a market bubble shares in monkeyscrotum.comwere "worth" a thousand dollars each, because people were buying and
>>>>> selling them for a thousand dollars, but at the same time they were worth
>>>>> nothing at all because Monkeyscrotum.com was one guy at a rented desk with
>>>>> a stupid idea that had no chance of actually becoming a viable business. It
>>>>> had perceived value and thus trading value but no backing."
>>>>>
>>>>> "The thing is, in all of those examples, there is *mutual demand*,
>>>>> i.e., you can only trade 10 pelts for 20 bushels if the bushels-owner needs
>>>>> pelts. That's the reason money (USD) is useful—there is a near-infinite
>>>>> demand for it. It's also why BTC is useless—absolutely nobody has any
>>>>> demand for it outside from an insignificantly tiny fringe group.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I like how those examples devolve in exactly the same way that
>>>>> society would devolve if we all became libertarians. Today we want cars,
>>>>> tomorrow we'll want guns, the next day we'll be offloading our worthless
>>>>> gold for sheep, and by day 4 we're all hunter-gatherers desperate for food."
>>>>>
>>>>> From two of my economics friends. More coming.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land
>>>>>> mass), and 3rd in population.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chad, indeed it is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> US population: 300 Million
>>>>>>> China Population: 1.344 billion
>>>>>>> World Population: 7 billion
>>>>>>> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are
>>>>>>> incredibly tiny.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our country is not small.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Carry on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>>>>>>>>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>>>>>>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>>>>>>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>>>>>>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the
>>>>>>>>> transaction.  For example:
>>>>>>>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?
>>>>>>>>>  Will the seller agree to an even trade?
>>>>>>>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his
>>>>>>>>> pistols?
>>>>>>>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>>>>>>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn
>>>>>>>>> from the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?
>>>>>>>>>  So, the value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I
>>>>>>>>> have good you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum
>>>>>>>>> at which we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that
>>>>>>>>> value maybe 1:1.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I
>>>>>>>>> need corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a
>>>>>>>>> 1:1 trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>>>>>>>>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>>>>>>>>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>>>>>>>>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>>>>>>>>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>>>>>>>>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen
>>>>>>>>> or pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times
>>>>>>>>>> in this exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15
>>>>>>>>>> ounces of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was
>>>>>>>>>> being sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly
>>>>>>>>>> what I meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the
>>>>>>>>>> amount of gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically
>>>>>>>>>> establishing worth. Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still
>>>>>>>>>> must trade in cash.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their
>>>>>>>>>> system works.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>  The CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure
>>>>>>>>>>> of the change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>>>> the value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the
>>>>>>>>>>> USD in relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary
>>>>>>>>>>> policy of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I
>>>>>>>>>>> remember my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things
>>>>>>>>>>> that determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge
>>>>>>>>>>> impact on the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these
>>>>>>>>>>> notes and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face
>>>>>>>>>>> value (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>>>>>>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export,
>>>>>>>>>>> they sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects
>>>>>>>>>>> the demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign
>>>>>>>>>>> countries will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless
>>>>>>>>>>> notes?). ANd just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> wants the USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.
>>>>>>>>>>>  Alot of times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the
>>>>>>>>>>> government stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual
>>>>>>>>>>> value of one currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest
>>>>>>>>>>> rates, debt levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other
>>>>>>>>>>> factors are what set the value.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based
>>>>>>>>>>> upon the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>>>>>>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>>>>>>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>>>>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>>>>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why
>>>>>>>>>>> you had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.
>>>>>>>>>>>  That is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there
>>>>>>>>>>> are vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have
>>>>>>>>>>> to go through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply
>>>>>>>>>>> like converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would
>>>>>>>>>>> realize there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point,
>>>>>>>>>>> the Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points
>>>>>>>>>>> above to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It
>>>>>>>>>>> has absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the
>>>>>>>>>>>> end pont of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set
>>>>>>>>>>>> their values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> are paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for .15 BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTC, just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> essence of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> utility of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overthinking bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> piwer bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cognitive dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like I paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owning a Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - or Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugioh cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably could here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negotiable value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars because that's what the government forces banks to accept and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because people think the government's handling of the money supply us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trustworthy because most people don't understand the political motive to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoin, even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can then launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but even THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfer to dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people they needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real-world money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  It won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chugalug mailing list
>>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chugalug mailing list
>> Chugalug at chugalug.org
>> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chugalug mailing list
> Chugalug at chugalug.org
> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug
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>
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