[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 20:40:12 UTC 2013


And yet I don't remember the section in my US History class where people
were hoarding goats and gun and burning their useless gold just to stay
warm at night.

*- Chad W. Smith*


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> We've done Free Market.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
>
>
> http://buttcoin.org/butterfly-labs-mini-rig-is-a-huge-broken-unstable-piece-of-shit
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> btw - speaking of "Real World Machines" bought with "Real World Money" -
>> did those butterfly bitcoin mining rigs ever actually ship?
>>
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <.<
>>>
>>> Dafrak?
>>>
>>> Why would "tomorrow we all want guns?"  Being Libertarian isn't the same
>>> as being an anarchist.  How the heck would a truly free market change the
>>> world into a post apocalyptic hellscape in 4 days?  That's far dumber than
>>> spending real world money on real world machines to produce fake online
>>> money.
>>>
>>>
>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> "He's broadly right in that anything is worth the largest amount that
>>>> someone will pay for it, sorta. But that's tautological to the point of
>>>> being meaningless. During a market bubble shares in monkeyscrotum.comwere "worth" a thousand dollars each, because people were buying and
>>>> selling them for a thousand dollars, but at the same time they were worth
>>>> nothing at all because Monkeyscrotum.com was one guy at a rented desk with
>>>> a stupid idea that had no chance of actually becoming a viable business. It
>>>> had perceived value and thus trading value but no backing."
>>>>
>>>> "The thing is, in all of those examples, there is *mutual demand*,
>>>> i.e., you can only trade 10 pelts for 20 bushels if the bushels-owner needs
>>>> pelts. That's the reason money (USD) is useful—there is a near-infinite
>>>> demand for it. It's also why BTC is useless—absolutely nobody has any
>>>> demand for it outside from an insignificantly tiny fringe group.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I like how those examples devolve in exactly the same way that
>>>> society would devolve if we all became libertarians. Today we want cars,
>>>> tomorrow we'll want guns, the next day we'll be offloading our worthless
>>>> gold for sheep, and by day 4 we're all hunter-gatherers desperate for food."
>>>>
>>>> From two of my economics friends. More coming.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land
>>>>> mass), and 3rd in population.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Chad, indeed it is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> US population: 300 Million
>>>>>> China Population: 1.344 billion
>>>>>> World Population: 7 billion
>>>>>> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are incredibly
>>>>>> tiny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our country is not small.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carry on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>>>>>>>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>>>>>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>>>>>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>>>>>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the
>>>>>>>> transaction.  For example:
>>>>>>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?
>>>>>>>>  Will the seller agree to an even trade?
>>>>>>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his
>>>>>>>> pistols?
>>>>>>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>>>>>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn
>>>>>>>> from the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So,
>>>>>>>> the value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have
>>>>>>>> good you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at
>>>>>>>> which we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that
>>>>>>>> value maybe 1:1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I
>>>>>>>> need corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a
>>>>>>>> 1:1 trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>>>>>>>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>>>>>>>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>>>>>>>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>>>>>>>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>>>>>>>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen
>>>>>>>> or pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times
>>>>>>>>> in this exchange.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15
>>>>>>>>> ounces of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was
>>>>>>>>> being sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly
>>>>>>>>> what I meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the
>>>>>>>>> amount of gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically
>>>>>>>>> establishing worth. Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still
>>>>>>>>> must trade in cash.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system
>>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>  The CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure
>>>>>>>>>> of the change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>>> the value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the
>>>>>>>>>> USD in relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary
>>>>>>>>>> policy of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I
>>>>>>>>>> remember my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things
>>>>>>>>>> that determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge
>>>>>>>>>> impact on the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these
>>>>>>>>>> notes and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face
>>>>>>>>>> value (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>>>>>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export,
>>>>>>>>>> they sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects
>>>>>>>>>> the demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign
>>>>>>>>>> countries will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless
>>>>>>>>>> notes?). ANd just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone
>>>>>>>>>> wants the USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.
>>>>>>>>>>  Alot of times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the
>>>>>>>>>> government stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual
>>>>>>>>>> value of one currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest
>>>>>>>>>> rates, debt levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other
>>>>>>>>>> factors are what set the value.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based
>>>>>>>>>> upon the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>>>>>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>>>>>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>>>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>>>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>>>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why
>>>>>>>>>> you had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.
>>>>>>>>>>  That is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there
>>>>>>>>>> are vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have
>>>>>>>>>> to go through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply
>>>>>>>>>> like converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would
>>>>>>>>>> realize there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point,
>>>>>>>>>> the Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points
>>>>>>>>>> above to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It
>>>>>>>>>> has absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end
>>>>>>>>>>> pont of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>>>>>>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in
>>>>>>>>>>> are paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have
>>>>>>>>>>>> bought and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of
>>>>>>>>>>>> them invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage
>>>>>>>>>>>> for .15 BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> BTC, just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the
>>>>>>>>>>>> essence of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the
>>>>>>>>>>>> utility of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested
>>>>>>>>>>>>> piwer bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cognitive dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like I paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owning a Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - or Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugioh cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably could here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negotiable value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the government forces banks to accept and because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people think the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because most people don't understand the political motive to devalue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people they needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real-world money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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