[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 20:33:25 UTC 2013


We've done Free Market.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

http://buttcoin.org/butterfly-labs-mini-rig-is-a-huge-broken-unstable-piece-of-shit



On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:

> btw - speaking of "Real World Machines" bought with "Real World Money" -
> did those butterfly bitcoin mining rigs ever actually ship?
>
> *- Chad W. Smith*
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> <.<
>>
>> Dafrak?
>>
>> Why would "tomorrow we all want guns?"  Being Libertarian isn't the same
>> as being an anarchist.  How the heck would a truly free market change the
>> world into a post apocalyptic hellscape in 4 days?  That's far dumber than
>> spending real world money on real world machines to produce fake online
>> money.
>>
>>
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> "He's broadly right in that anything is worth the largest amount that
>>> someone will pay for it, sorta. But that's tautological to the point of
>>> being meaningless. During a market bubble shares in monkeyscrotum.comwere "worth" a thousand dollars each, because people were buying and
>>> selling them for a thousand dollars, but at the same time they were worth
>>> nothing at all because Monkeyscrotum.com was one guy at a rented desk with
>>> a stupid idea that had no chance of actually becoming a viable business. It
>>> had perceived value and thus trading value but no backing."
>>>
>>> "The thing is, in all of those examples, there is *mutual demand*,
>>> i.e., you can only trade 10 pelts for 20 bushels if the bushels-owner needs
>>> pelts. That's the reason money (USD) is useful—there is a near-infinite
>>> demand for it. It's also why BTC is useless—absolutely nobody has any
>>> demand for it outside from an insignificantly tiny fringe group.
>>>
>>> Also, I like how those examples devolve in exactly the same way that
>>> society would devolve if we all became libertarians. Today we want cars,
>>> tomorrow we'll want guns, the next day we'll be offloading our worthless
>>> gold for sheep, and by day 4 we're all hunter-gatherers desperate for food."
>>>
>>> From two of my economics friends. More coming.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land
>>>> mass), and 3rd in population.
>>>>
>>>> Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.
>>>>
>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Chad, indeed it is:
>>>>>
>>>>> US population: 300 Million
>>>>> China Population: 1.344 billion
>>>>> World Population: 7 billion
>>>>> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are incredibly
>>>>> tiny.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Our country is not small.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carry on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>>>>>>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>>>>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>>>>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>>>>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the
>>>>>>> transaction.  For example:
>>>>>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?
>>>>>>>  Will the seller agree to an even trade?
>>>>>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his
>>>>>>> pistols?
>>>>>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>>>>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn
>>>>>>> from the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So,
>>>>>>> the value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have
>>>>>>> good you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at
>>>>>>> which we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that
>>>>>>> value maybe 1:1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I
>>>>>>> need corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a
>>>>>>> 1:1 trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>>>>>>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>>>>>>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>>>>>>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>>>>>>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>>>>>>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen
>>>>>>> or pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times
>>>>>>>> in this exchange.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15
>>>>>>>> ounces of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was
>>>>>>>> being sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly
>>>>>>>> what I meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the
>>>>>>>> amount of gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically
>>>>>>>> establishing worth. Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still must
>>>>>>>> trade in cash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system
>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.
>>>>>>>>>  The CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure
>>>>>>>>> of the change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>> the value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the
>>>>>>>>> USD in relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary
>>>>>>>>> policy of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I
>>>>>>>>> remember my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things
>>>>>>>>> that determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge
>>>>>>>>> impact on the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these
>>>>>>>>> notes and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face
>>>>>>>>> value (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>>>>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export,
>>>>>>>>> they sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects
>>>>>>>>> the demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign
>>>>>>>>> countries will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless
>>>>>>>>> notes?). ANd just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone wants
>>>>>>>>> the USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.  Alot
>>>>>>>>> of times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the
>>>>>>>>> government stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual
>>>>>>>>> value of one currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest
>>>>>>>>> rates, debt levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other
>>>>>>>>> factors are what set the value.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based
>>>>>>>>> upon the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>>>>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>>>>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why
>>>>>>>>> you had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.
>>>>>>>>>  That is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there
>>>>>>>>> are vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have
>>>>>>>>> to go through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply
>>>>>>>>> like converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would
>>>>>>>>> realize there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point,
>>>>>>>>> the Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points
>>>>>>>>> above to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It
>>>>>>>>> has absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end
>>>>>>>>>> pont of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>>>>>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in
>>>>>>>>>> are paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have
>>>>>>>>>>> bought and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of
>>>>>>>>>>> them invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage
>>>>>>>>>>> for .15 BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC,
>>>>>>>>>>> just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the
>>>>>>>>>>> essence of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the
>>>>>>>>>>> utility of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested
>>>>>>>>>>>> piwer bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cognitive dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like I paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owning a Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - or Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugioh cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably could here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negotiable value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the government forces banks to accept and because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people think the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because most people don't understand the political motive to devalue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people they needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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