[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 20:28:28 UTC 2013


btw - speaking of "Real World Machines" bought with "Real World Money" -
did those butterfly bitcoin mining rigs ever actually ship?

*- Chad W. Smith*


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:

> <.<
>
> Dafrak?
>
> Why would "tomorrow we all want guns?"  Being Libertarian isn't the same
> as being an anarchist.  How the heck would a truly free market change the
> world into a post apocalyptic hellscape in 4 days?  That's far dumber than
> spending real world money on real world machines to produce fake online
> money.
>
>
> *- Chad W. Smith*
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "He's broadly right in that anything is worth the largest amount that
>> someone will pay for it, sorta. But that's tautological to the point of
>> being meaningless. During a market bubble shares in monkeyscrotum.comwere "worth" a thousand dollars each, because people were buying and
>> selling them for a thousand dollars, but at the same time they were worth
>> nothing at all because Monkeyscrotum.com was one guy at a rented desk with
>> a stupid idea that had no chance of actually becoming a viable business. It
>> had perceived value and thus trading value but no backing."
>>
>> "The thing is, in all of those examples, there is *mutual demand*, i.e.,
>> you can only trade 10 pelts for 20 bushels if the bushels-owner needs
>> pelts. That's the reason money (USD) is useful—there is a near-infinite
>> demand for it. It's also why BTC is useless—absolutely nobody has any
>> demand for it outside from an insignificantly tiny fringe group.
>>
>> Also, I like how those examples devolve in exactly the same way that
>> society would devolve if we all became libertarians. Today we want cars,
>> tomorrow we'll want guns, the next day we'll be offloading our worthless
>> gold for sheep, and by day 4 we're all hunter-gatherers desperate for food."
>>
>> From two of my economics friends. More coming.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land mass),
>>> and 3rd in population.
>>>
>>> Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.
>>>
>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chad, indeed it is:
>>>>
>>>> US population: 300 Million
>>>> China Population: 1.344 billion
>>>> World Population: 7 billion
>>>> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are incredibly
>>>> tiny.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Our country is not small.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carry on.
>>>>>
>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>>>>>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>>>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>>>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>>>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the
>>>>>> transaction.  For example:
>>>>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?  Will
>>>>>> the seller agree to an even trade?
>>>>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his
>>>>>> pistols?
>>>>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>>>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn from
>>>>>> the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So,
>>>>>> the value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have
>>>>>> good you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at
>>>>>> which we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that
>>>>>> value maybe 1:1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I need
>>>>>> corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a 1:1
>>>>>> trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>>>>>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>>>>>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>>>>>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>>>>>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>>>>>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen or
>>>>>> pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times in
>>>>>>> this exchange.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15
>>>>>>> ounces of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was
>>>>>>> being sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly
>>>>>>> what I meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the
>>>>>>> amount of gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically
>>>>>>> establishing worth. Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still must
>>>>>>> trade in cash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system
>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.  The
>>>>>>>> CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure of the
>>>>>>>> change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with the
>>>>>>>> value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the USD in
>>>>>>>> relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary
>>>>>>>> policy of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I
>>>>>>>> remember my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things
>>>>>>>> that determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge
>>>>>>>> impact on the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these
>>>>>>>> notes and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face
>>>>>>>> value (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>>>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export,
>>>>>>>> they sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects
>>>>>>>> the demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign
>>>>>>>> countries will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless
>>>>>>>> notes?). ANd just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone wants
>>>>>>>> the USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.  Alot
>>>>>>>> of times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the
>>>>>>>> government stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual
>>>>>>>> value of one currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest
>>>>>>>> rates, debt levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other
>>>>>>>> factors are what set the value.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based
>>>>>>>> upon the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>>>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>>>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why
>>>>>>>> you had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.
>>>>>>>>  That is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there
>>>>>>>> are vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have
>>>>>>>> to go through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply
>>>>>>>> like converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would
>>>>>>>> realize there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point,
>>>>>>>> the Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points
>>>>>>>> above to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It
>>>>>>>> has absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end
>>>>>>>>> pont of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>>>>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in
>>>>>>>>> are paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have
>>>>>>>>>> bought and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of
>>>>>>>>>> them invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage
>>>>>>>>>> for .15 BTC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC,
>>>>>>>>>> just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the
>>>>>>>>>> essence of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the
>>>>>>>>>> utility of it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested
>>>>>>>>>>> piwer bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only
>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like I paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owning a Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - or Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugioh cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably could here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negotiable value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because that's what the government forces banks to accept and because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people think the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because most people don't understand the political motive to devalue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves, that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people they needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google reads my email!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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