[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 20:08:20 UTC 2013


Um, we are the 4th largest country in the world, physically (land mass),
and 3rd in population.

Hardly qualifies as "small" by any definition.

*- Chad W. Smith*


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Chad, indeed it is:
>
> US population: 300 Million
> China Population: 1.344 billion
> World Population: 7 billion
> We only contain about 4% of the worlds population.  We are incredibly tiny.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Our country is not small.
>>
>> Carry on.
>>
>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>>> world does things in many different ways.
>>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the transaction.
>>>  For example:
>>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?  Will
>>> the seller agree to an even trade?
>>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his pistols?
>>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn from
>>> the farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>>
>>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So, the
>>> value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have good
>>> you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at which
>>> we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that value
>>> maybe 1:1.
>>>
>>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I need
>>> corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a 1:1
>>> trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>>
>>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen or
>>> pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times in
>>>> this exchange.
>>>>
>>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15 ounces
>>>> of gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was being
>>>> sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly what I
>>>> meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the amount of
>>>> gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically establishing worth.
>>>> Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still must
>>>> trade in cash.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system
>>>> works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.  The
>>>>> CPI is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure of the
>>>>> change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with the
>>>>> value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the USD in
>>>>> relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary policy
>>>>> of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I remember
>>>>> my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things that
>>>>> determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge impact on
>>>>> the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these notes
>>>>> and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face value
>>>>> (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export, they
>>>>> sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects the
>>>>> demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign countries
>>>>> will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless notes?). ANd
>>>>> just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone wants the
>>>>> USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.  Alot of
>>>>> times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the government
>>>>> stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual value of one
>>>>> currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest rates, debt
>>>>> levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other factors are
>>>>> what set the value.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based upon
>>>>> the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why you
>>>>> had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.  That
>>>>> is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there are
>>>>> vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have to go
>>>>> through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply like
>>>>> converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would realize
>>>>> there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point, the
>>>>> Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points above
>>>>> to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It has
>>>>> absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end pont
>>>>>> of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in are
>>>>>> paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have bought
>>>>>>> and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of them
>>>>>>> invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage for .15
>>>>>>> BTC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC,
>>>>>>> just for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the essence
>>>>>>> of your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the utility of
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer
>>>>>>>> bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only
>>>>>>>>> focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying
>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it
>>>>>>>>>> beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have
>>>>>>>>>> nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment
>>>>>>>>>>> costs!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can
>>>>>>>>>>> freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say
>>>>>>>>>>> has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The
>>>>>>>>>>>> website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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