[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Chad Smith chad78 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 19:59:50 UTC 2013


Our country is not small.

Carry on.

*- Chad W. Smith*


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
> world does things in many different ways.
> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the transaction.
>  For example:
> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?  Will the
> seller agree to an even trade?
> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his pistols?
> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn from the
> farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>
> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So, the
> value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have good
> you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at which
> we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that value
> maybe 1:1.
>
> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I need corn
> for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a 1:1 trade,
> and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here comes
> Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1 bushel.
>  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy lives
> further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2 pelts
> to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the supply
> and demand (scarcity of supply).
>
> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen or
> pelts, or corn, or anything.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times in this
>> exchange.
>>
>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15 ounces of
>> gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was being
>> sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly what I
>> meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the amount of
>> gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically establishing worth.
>> Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>
>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still must trade
>> in cash.
>>
>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system works.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.  The CPI
>>> is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure of the
>>> change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with the
>>> value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the USD in
>>> relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>
>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>
>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary policy of
>>> the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I remember my
>>> econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things that
>>> determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge impact on
>>> the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these notes and
>>> investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face value (demand
>>> is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those investors
>>> then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>
>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export, they
>>> sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects the
>>> demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign countries
>>> will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless notes?). ANd
>>> just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>
>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone wants the
>>> USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.  Alot of
>>> times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the government
>>> stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual value of one
>>> currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest rates, debt
>>> levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other factors are
>>> what set the value.
>>>
>>>
>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based upon
>>> the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>
>>>
>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why you had
>>> to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.  That is
>>> plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there are
>>> vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have to go
>>> through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply like
>>> converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would realize
>>> there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point, the
>>> Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points above
>>> to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It has
>>> absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>
>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>
>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end pont
>>>> of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>
>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in are
>>>> paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have bought and
>>>>> sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of them
>>>>> invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage for .15
>>>>> BTC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC, just
>>>>> for poops and snickers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the essence of
>>>>> your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the utility of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer
>>>>>> bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually
>>>>>>> work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in
>>>>>>> the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
>>>>>>> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>>>>>>>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
>>>>>>> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
>>>>>>> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>>>>>>>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
>>>>>>> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus
>>>>>>> on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars
>>>>>>> only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying
>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond
>>>>>>>> the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>>>>>>>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment
>>>>>>>>> costs!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can
>>>>>>>>> freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say
>>>>>>>>> has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything
>>>>>>>>>> about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The
>>>>>>>>>> website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>>>>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>>>>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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