[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Lynn Dixon boodaddy at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 19:59:54 UTC 2013


You realize that the dollar bill as a physcial item is pretty damn
worthless right?

Its intrinsic value is the same as a Bitcoin....its utility.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> See, you are talking about REAL, PHYSICAL things there Lynn.
>
> Comparing Bitcoins to real things I can physical offer someone (like a
> dollar bill) is laughable.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again Stephen you are thinking on an extraordinary small plane.  I
>> certainly can take gold to many parts of the world (including in the US)
>> and buy products with it. Once you think outside our small country, the
>> world does things in many different ways.
>> The worth of anything is established by the parties in the transaction.
>>  For example:
>> 1. Is my wifes BMW worth trading even for a newer model accord?  Will the
>> seller agree to an even trade?
>> 2. Is my antique rifle worth trading to my neighbor for 2 of his pistols?
>> 3. Is my 1 ounce of gold worth buying 100 sheep for my farm?
>> 4. Is the 10 pelts I hunted worth trading for 20 bushels of corn from the
>> farmer whom is needing pelts to clothe his family?
>>
>> Notice there was never any need for the USD in those examples?  So, the
>> value of anything is determinded by is scarcity and demand.  If I have good
>> you want, and you have goods I want, the value is the equlibirum at which
>> we are both happy with the trade.  If it was just you and I, that value
>> maybe 1:1.
>>
>> For example: You have 100 bushels of corn.  I have 100 pelts.  I need
>> corn for my family and you need pelts for the winter.  We could do a 1:1
>> trade, and both have 50 pelts and 50 bushels, and be happy.  Now, here
>> comes Randy. He has pelts to trade as well, and offers you 2 pelts for 1
>> bushel.  The value of your corn has just increased to 2 pelts because Randy
>> lives further north where there is less food. I have to pay you at least 2
>> pelts to get you to even consider.  Thus the value is controlled by the
>> supply and demand (scarcity of supply).
>>
>> The same applies to Bitcoins, and it does with USD, or EUR, or Yen or
>> pelts, or corn, or anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I KNOW it has nothing to do with gold. I've said this three times in
>>> this exchange.
>>>
>>> Randy pointed out that the price of one bitcoin was $102 or 15 ounces of
>>> gold. I pointed out he was correct, while being sarcastic. I was being
>>> sarcastic for a reason because Randy basically pointed out exactly what I
>>> meant: Without the USD or Gold (In its USD equivalent i.e. the amount of
>>> gold you can buy with amount of USD) you are basically establishing worth.
>>> Its the only way to establish the worth of a Bitcoin.
>>>
>>> Nobody is going to take gold and give you a product, you still must
>>> trade in cash.
>>>
>>> Lynn, even those at the top of a pyramid scheme swear their system works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stephen,
>>>> I sincerely hope you do not think the CPI backs the US Dollar.  The CPI
>>>> is a lagging indicator of the rate of inflation. It is a measure of the
>>>> change in price of a set basket of goods. It has nothing to do with the
>>>> value of the USD, moreover it simply echoes the current value of the USD in
>>>> relation to this set basket of goods.
>>>>
>>>> Here, educate yourself: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
>>>>
>>>> The value of the dollar is quite simply controlled by monetary policy
>>>> of the Federal Reserve, which is ran by small group of men.  If I remember
>>>> my econmics lessons from college correctly, there are three things that
>>>> determinse the value of the dollar.  Our National debt has a huge impact on
>>>> the demand for this currency and conversely its value.
>>>> 1. Treasury Notes -- The tresuray controls the supply of these notes
>>>> and investors will auction for them. Sometimes for more than face value
>>>> (demand is high) sometimes for lower than face (Demand is low). Those
>>>> investors then re-sell those notes in a secondary market
>>>>
>>>> 2. Foreign Reserves --  When other countries import and export, they
>>>> sometimes end up with an excess or shortage of USD which also affects the
>>>> demand for it.  When the value starts to decline, these foreign countries
>>>> will dump their reserves (because who wants to hold worthless notes?). ANd
>>>> just like any market, this causes people to buy and sell.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Exchange rates with other currrencies (since not everyone wants the
>>>> USD).  How the USD measures up to the value of other currencies.  Alot of
>>>> times, the GDP of the countries are analyzed and sometimes the government
>>>> stability is taken into consideration to detemine the actual value of one
>>>> currency to another.  The coutnries central bank interest rates, debt
>>>> levels (to both domestic and foreign bodies) GDP, and other factors are
>>>> what set the value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A retailer or supplier would set the value of his products based upon
>>>> the demand for his products and the costs to make those products (time
>>>> value of money also included). I would also quip that I did indeed buy a
>>>> portion my servers, rackspace and hardware to mine my BTC with BTC.
>>>> However, I will admit, that when I pay my power I have to use my BTC to buy
>>>> US dollars since my electic company only accepts USD. I can't even use
>>>> Chad's paypal example, since they refuse to accept Paypal or even AMEX.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To Randy's point, and to argue against yours, I have no idea why you
>>>> had to assume One would take BTC, convert to USD, and then buy gold.  That
>>>> is plain stupid.  1 BTC is worth about .08 ounces of gold, and there are
>>>> vendors online that will trade their gold for your BTC. You dont have to go
>>>> through the crazy process of converting to USD, unless you simply like
>>>> converting currency for the hell of it. I really wish you would realize
>>>> there is more to this world than the USD.  Also to Randy's point, the
>>>> Dollar hasn't been backed by gold for a long time now.  See my points above
>>>> to learn how the value of the dollar is truly set (spoiler alert: It has
>>>> absolutely zero to do with gold anymore).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nothing backs the dollar, except the consumer price index.
>>>>>
>>>>> But nothing backs bitcoins either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guess what Lynn? Ask the retailer you purchase from what the end pont
>>>>> of their bitcoins you give them are? Also, ask them how they set their
>>>>> values for bitcoin purchases are set?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm assuming the company didnt buy their servers, rackspace, in are
>>>>> paying their power bill in bitcoins
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:36 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>> I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have bought
>>>>>> and sold several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of them
>>>>>> invovled the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage for .15
>>>>>> BTC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC, just
>>>>>> for poops and snickers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the essence of
>>>>>> your reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the utility of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking
>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer
>>>>>>> bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins
>>>>>>>> actually work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties
>>>>>>>> involved in the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only
>>>>>>>> thinking very simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than
>>>>>>>> just the US.  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD
>>>>>>>> the supply is artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is
>>>>>>>> absolutely horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer
>>>>>>>> network.  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the
>>>>>>>> value backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only
>>>>>>>> focus on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US
>>>>>>>> Dollars only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying
>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it
>>>>>>>>> beyond the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have
>>>>>>>>> nothing backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment
>>>>>>>>>> costs!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can
>>>>>>>>>> freely purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say
>>>>>>>>>> has no value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything
>>>>>>>>>>> about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The
>>>>>>>>>>> website just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what
>>>>>>>>>>>> those exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors
>>>>>>>>>>>> might be interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bank and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beanie Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cards - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency.  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to give you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-negotiable at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.  I use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium of exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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