[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 19:24:09 UTC 2013


Except that I cannot go to a bank and ask for a dollar with bitcoins. At
least not any normal bank.

I'm just going to agree to disagree, its a lot of Austrian School of
Economics, great theory terrible practice and considered by everyone
outside of Austrian School to be utter bunk.

I mean no offense to any of you, of course, but I am going to continue to
consider bitcoins a scam and a fad.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Randy Yates <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:

> Or you could say a dollar is worth around 0.01 bitcoin. You don't have a
> point to your argument. The dollar isn't based on gold. $35 used to be
> backed by an ounce of gold. If the dollar were equivalent to gold, you
> could still buy an ounce of gold for $35.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Thats right Randy...its worth $102 dollars, or the equivilent dollar
>> purchase in gold.
>>  On Aug 22, 2013 2:45 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's worth $102, or 0.08 ounces of gold
>>> http://coinmill.com/BTC_XAU.html#BTC=1. What gives it that value?
>>> Scarcity and trade. Now what gives the dollar it's value? A government
>>> saying is worth something and trade. Scarcity will hold up a lot better
>>> than a government saying it's worth a certain amount.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking bitcoins.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer
>>>> bill, and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>>>>
>>>> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually
>>>>> work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in
>>>>> the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
>>>>> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>>>>>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
>>>>> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
>>>>> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>>>>>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
>>>>> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus
>>>>> on the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars
>>>>> only.  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying
>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond
>>>>>> the word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>>>>>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>>>>> dissonance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>>>>>>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>>>>>>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything
>>>>>>>> about USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website
>>>>>>>> just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank
>>>>>>>>>>>> and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid
>>>>>>>>>>>> for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro
>>>>>>>>>>>> in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie
>>>>>>>>>>>> Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards
>>>>>>>>>>>> - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they
>>>>>>>>>>>> will gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  You can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give
>>>>>>>>>>>> you the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <
>>>>>>>>>>>> boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmowery at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tokens and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last.  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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