[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Lynn Dixon boodaddy at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 18:35:19 UTC 2013


Stephen,
I have already told you what my bitcoins are worth.  I have bought and sold
several prodcuts and services using my Bitcoin, and none of them invovled
the USD.  Just recently  I bought 100G of Copy.com storage for .15 BTC.

I am also thinking about buying a BlockEruptor for around 1 BTC, just for
poops and snickers.

Tell me, what "backs" the US Dollar?   I would imagine the essence of your
reply will be the same things that "backs" my BTC....the utility of it.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking bitcoins.
>
> Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer bill,
> and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?
>
> What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
> On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stephen,
>> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually
>> work.  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in
>> the transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
>> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
>> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
>> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
>> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>>
>> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus on
>> the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars only.
>>  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying this:
>>>
>>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond the
>>> word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>>
>>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>>>
>>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive
>>>> dissonance?
>>>>
>>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>>>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>>>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything about
>>>>> USD or exchange rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website
>>>>> just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank
>>>>>>>>> and you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid
>>>>>>>>> for software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro
>>>>>>>>> in my life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie
>>>>>>>>> Babies - or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards
>>>>>>>>> - or Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they will
>>>>>>>>> gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.  You
>>>>>>>>> can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give you
>>>>>>>>> the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <cmowery at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable at
>>>>>>>>>>>> any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some tokens
>>>>>>>>>>>> and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade places
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the token
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value
>>>>>>>>>>>> to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>>>>>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>>>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>>>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>>>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as
>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>> use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that
>>>>>>>>>>>> have absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got
>>>>>>>>>>>> RICH off of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they
>>>>>>>>>>>> needed to have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got
>>>>>>>>>>>> rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard
>>>>>>>>>>>> to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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