[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 18:31:00 UTC 2013


No, Lynn I think its safe to say youbare severely overthinking bitcoins.

Tell me right now: outside of the processing cycles, invested piwer bill,
and an algorithm, what backs your bitcoin?

What is one bitcoin worth? A gpu cycle? A power bill? Gold?
On Aug 22, 2013 2:28 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Stephen,
> again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually work.
>  The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in the
> transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
> simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
>  The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
> artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
> horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
>  No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
> backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.
>
> I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus on
> the simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars only.
>  The world doesnt revolve around the dollar.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying this:
>>
>> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond the
>> word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
>> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>>
>> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>>
>>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive dissonance?
>>>
>>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stephen,
>>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything about
>>>> USD or exchange rates.
>>>>
>>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website
>>>> just listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>>
>>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Randy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank and
>>>>>>>> you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid for
>>>>>>>> software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro in my
>>>>>>>> life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie Babies -
>>>>>>>> or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards - or
>>>>>>>> Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they will
>>>>>>>> gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.  You
>>>>>>>> can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give you
>>>>>>>> the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized
>>>>>>>>> currency", but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could
>>>>>>>>> here in Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably
>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <cmowery at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable at
>>>>>>>>>>> any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some tokens
>>>>>>>>>>> and expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade places
>>>>>>>>>>> on the token
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to
>>>>>>>>>>> me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>>>>>>>>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>>>>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major
>>>>>>>>>>> currency accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable
>>>>>>>>>>> value among a select group
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the
>>>>>>>>>>> traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly
>>>>>>>>>>> pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as
>>>>>>>>>>> a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> use it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got
>>>>>>>>>>> rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard
>>>>>>>>>>> to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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