[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Lynn Dixon boodaddy at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 18:27:07 UTC 2013


Stephen,
again, I think you and Chad fail to understand how Bitcoins actually work.
 The value (like anything in trade) is set by the parties involved in the
transactions.  If you ONLY think in USD then you are only thinking very
simple.  This is a global economy, I do business in more than just the US.
 The value of ANY currency is set by supply/demand.  With USD the supply is
artificially manipulated by the Fed, which in my opinion is absolutely
horrid. The Supply of Bitcoin is controlled by the peer-to-peer network.
 No one individual or entity can change the supply, therefore the value
backing the currency is the sheer demand for it.

I honestly have no idea how to continue this debate if we only focus on the
simple minded-ness of assuming everything is done in US Dollars only.  The
world doesnt revolve around the dollar.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> That is without even mentioning the cognitive dissonace of saying this:
>
> 'The dollar has no value because there is nothing backing it beyond the
> word of the government. So trade in bitcoins....which also have nothing
> backing it beyond our personal guarentees'
>
> Its the same thing. Meet the new boss, a clone of theold boss
> On Aug 22, 2013 2:18 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good thing everyone has mining equipment. Oh wait, investment costs!
>>
>> As for buying them....do I even have to explain the cognitive dissonance?
>>
>> 'The dollar is worthless we should replace it....but you can freely
>> purchase bitcoins with it, thereby implying that the dollar we say has no
>> value HAS value, because we are willing to accept it in trade'
>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>> Did you even read the article?  No where did it mention anything about
>>> USD or exchange rates.
>>>
>>> There are only two ways to get BTC.  1. Mine them 2. Buy them.
>>> Since most folks dont want to mine, they will buy BTC.  The website just
>>> listed the most recent exchange rate.
>>>
>>> Heres another site for exchange rates:
>>> www.bitcoinwatch.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Randy.
>>>>
>>>> On the top of the very site you just linked to. Guess what those
>>>> exchange rates establish? And the only reason payment processors might be
>>>> interested in bitcoins.
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 2:06 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-debit-card-ibtcard-will-offer-lower-processing-fees-for-merchants/
>>>>>
>>>>> It's coming :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> *sigh* no one ever pays me in Gum!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could buy lunch with Pesos if you're Pesos were in the bank and
>>>>>>> you had a debit card that automatically converted for you (like I paid for
>>>>>>> software in Euros yesterday through PayPal without ever owning a Euro in my
>>>>>>> life).  The same cannot be said for BitCoins - or POGs - or Beanie Babies -
>>>>>>> or Baseball cards - or Star Wars action figures - or Yugioh cards - or
>>>>>>> Pokemon - or Level 80 WoW characters...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All of those things have some value to some people - and they will
>>>>>>> gladly trade with you for them - but they are not actual currency.  You
>>>>>>> can't take your comic book collection to the bank and ask them to give you
>>>>>>> the equivalence in Pounds Sterling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>> This is an excellent point! Peso are a "world recognized currency",
>>>>>>>> but yet, I can't buy my lunch with Pesos.  Well I probably could here in
>>>>>>>> Dalton (local yocals will get that joke), but in Benton, probably not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Mowery <cmowery at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you take pesos to a gas station, do they take those?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 22, 2013, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter. Its still a fiat currency and non-negotiable at
>>>>>>>>>> any major retailer that cannot convert it to cash.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Its like you went to the arcade and cashed in for some tokens and
>>>>>>>>>> expect everyone to accept them because of the value the arcade places on
>>>>>>>>>> the token
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:32 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with
>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to
>>>>>>>>>> me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>>>>>>>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>>>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>>>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency
>>>>>>>>>> accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among
>>>>>>>>>> a select group
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <
>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have
>>>>>>>>>> competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants
>>>>>>>>>> bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base.
>>>>>>>>>> First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the
>>>>>>>>>> dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because
>>>>>>>>>> that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think
>>>>>>>>>> the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the
>>>>>>>>>> traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly
>>>>>>>>>> pay with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a
>>>>>>>>>> medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use
>>>>>>>>>> it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich
>>>>>>>>>> - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to
>>>>>>>>>> keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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