[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Randy Yates lpcustom at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:49:11 UTC 2013


No one was buying anything online two decades ago either. Now there are a
lot of mom and pop stores out of business because of e-commerce. Do you
know think that bitcoin could be the next step for online transactions?


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I do see that the dollar is defined as a fiat chrrency, so I was wrong
> there.
>
> However,nobody here is buying groceries and gas with direct bitcoins yet.
> If you do, let me know where
> On Aug 22, 2013 1:44 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And Lynn: China and Brazil are STILL assuming rhey can trade your
>> bitcoins for some hard currency. Just because you traded with a small party
>> doesn't mean that was the end of the line
>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:43 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh good., so I can go to Brazil and get my lunch.
>>>
>>> Awesome.
>>>
>>> Did you even bother, in that very wijipedia article, to scroll down to
>>> the monentary economics section on fiat currency?
>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:41 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stephen,
>>>> I also don't think you understand what fiat money is either:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
>>>>
>>>> http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
>>>>
>>>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiat+money
>>>>
>>>> So Bitcoins are the exact antithesis of fiat currency.  They CANNOT be
>>>> controlled by any one group, or government.  You had your definition
>>>> completely wrong.
>>>>
>>>> And let me give you an example.  I buy a product/service from China or
>>>> Brazil using Bitcoins.  They absolutely refuse to accept dollars.  What do
>>>> I use?  We use Bitcoins as our currency because it has a value we both
>>>> agree on (since we are exchanging it for a product/service) and its easily
>>>> tendered between us.  You simply can't use a very localized reference  (IE
>>>> transaction in the United States) when you are talking global currencies,
>>>> which is exactly what Bitcoin is.  It being a global currency, free from
>>>> government regulation makes it non-fiat and highly tenderable. The value of
>>>> it is established upon the parties doing the transaction (albeit goods,
>>>> services, or anything else).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>>
>>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me,
>>>>> but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency
>>>>> accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among
>>>>> a select group
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing
>>>>>> currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money.
>>>>>> This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not
>>>>>> everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is
>>>>>> propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what
>>>>>> the government forces banks to accept and because people think the
>>>>>> government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>>>>>>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay
>>>>>>> with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a
>>>>>>>> medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use
>>>>>>>> it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich
>>>>>>>>> - because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to
>>>>>>>>> keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy
>>>>>>>>> it while it lasts."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of
>>>>>>>>>>> years.  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't say for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn
>>>>>>>>>>> sure going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and
>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>> how to devalue it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <
>>>>>>>>>>>> dbmchone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fully understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want, or a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and only led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government
>>>>>>>>>>>>> manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous market fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers like the Internet Archive already give that option to their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employees. In other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that. In order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those employees that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in sandwiches, water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payments if you're an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historically try to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control of something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protection, not bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to be the new Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bittorrent has been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authorities... does it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often this happens, from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what's happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business as usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belly up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoin and another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>>
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