[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:47:01 UTC 2013


I do see that the dollar is defined as a fiat chrrency, so I was wrong
there.

However,nobody here is buying groceries and gas with direct bitcoins yet.
If you do, let me know where
On Aug 22, 2013 1:44 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> And Lynn: China and Brazil are STILL assuming rhey can trade your bitcoins
> for some hard currency. Just because you traded with a small party doesn't
> mean that was the end of the line
> On Aug 22, 2013 1:43 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh good., so I can go to Brazil and get my lunch.
>>
>> Awesome.
>>
>> Did you even bother, in that very wijipedia article, to scroll down to
>> the monentary economics section on fiat currency?
>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:41 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>> I also don't think you understand what fiat money is either:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
>>>
>>> http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
>>>
>>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiat+money
>>>
>>> So Bitcoins are the exact antithesis of fiat currency.  They CANNOT be
>>> controlled by any one group, or government.  You had your definition
>>> completely wrong.
>>>
>>> And let me give you an example.  I buy a product/service from China or
>>> Brazil using Bitcoins.  They absolutely refuse to accept dollars.  What do
>>> I use?  We use Bitcoins as our currency because it has a value we both
>>> agree on (since we are exchanging it for a product/service) and its easily
>>> tendered between us.  You simply can't use a very localized reference  (IE
>>> transaction in the United States) when you are talking global currencies,
>>> which is exactly what Bitcoin is.  It being a global currency, free from
>>> government regulation makes it non-fiat and highly tenderable. The value of
>>> it is established upon the parties doing the transaction (albeit goods,
>>> services, or anything else).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>>
>>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me,
>>>> but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>>
>>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency
>>>> accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among
>>>> a select group
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>>
>>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing
>>>>> currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money.
>>>>> This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not
>>>>> everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is
>>>>> propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what
>>>>> the government forces banks to accept and because people think the
>>>>> government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>>>>>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay
>>>>>> with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a
>>>>>>> medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use
>>>>>>> it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>>>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to
>>>>>>>> keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.
>>>>>>>>  But there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy
>>>>>>>> it while it lasts."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and
>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out
>>>>>>>>>>> how to devalue it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <
>>>>>>>>>>> dbmchone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums
>>>>>>>>>>>> it up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without
>>>>>>>>>>>> fully understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses
>>>>>>>>>>>> want, or a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s
>>>>>>>>>>>> and only led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government
>>>>>>>>>>>> manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and
>>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous market fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of
>>>>>>>>>>>> markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employers like the Internet Archive already give that option to their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employees. In other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that. In order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those employees that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in sandwiches, water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payments if you're an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historically try to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control of something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bittorrent has been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authorities... does it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often this happens, from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what's happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business as usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoin and another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>
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