[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:44:39 UTC 2013


And Lynn: China and Brazil are STILL assuming rhey can trade your bitcoins
for some hard currency. Just because you traded with a small party doesn't
mean that was the end of the line
On Aug 22, 2013 1:43 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh good., so I can go to Brazil and get my lunch.
>
> Awesome.
>
> Did you even bother, in that very wijipedia article, to scroll down to the
> monentary economics section on fiat currency?
> On Aug 22, 2013 1:41 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stephen,
>> I also don't think you understand what fiat money is either:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
>>
>> http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
>>
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiat+money
>>
>> So Bitcoins are the exact antithesis of fiat currency.  They CANNOT be
>> controlled by any one group, or government.  You had your definition
>> completely wrong.
>>
>> And let me give you an example.  I buy a product/service from China or
>> Brazil using Bitcoins.  They absolutely refuse to accept dollars.  What do
>> I use?  We use Bitcoins as our currency because it has a value we both
>> agree on (since we are exchanging it for a product/service) and its easily
>> tendered between us.  You simply can't use a very localized reference  (IE
>> transaction in the United States) when you are talking global currencies,
>> which is exactly what Bitcoin is.  It being a global currency, free from
>> government regulation makes it non-fiat and highly tenderable. The value of
>> it is established upon the parties doing the transaction (albeit goods,
>> services, or anything else).
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.
>>>
>>> Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.
>>>
>>> Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?
>>>
>>> I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me, but
>>> people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
>>> products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
>>> shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
>>> apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.
>>>
>>> But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency
>>> accepted globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among
>>> a select group
>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>>>>
>>>> The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing
>>>> currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money.
>>>> This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not
>>>> everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is
>>>> propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what
>>>> the government forces banks to accept and because people think the
>>>> government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
>>>> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>>>>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>>>>
>>>>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>>>>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>>>>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>>>>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>>>>> somehow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay
>>>>> with bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Chad,
>>>>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>>>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>>>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>>>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a
>>>>>> medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use
>>>>>> it for all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of
>>>>>> exchange.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>>>> have them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to
>>>>>>> keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on
>>>>>>> little cardboard discs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.  But
>>>>>>> there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy it
>>>>>>> while it lasts."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <
>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and
>>>>>>>>>> focus on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out
>>>>>>>>>> how to devalue it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <dbmchone at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums it
>>>>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without
>>>>>>>>>>> fully understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses
>>>>>>>>>>> want, or a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s
>>>>>>>>>>> and only led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government
>>>>>>>>>>> manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and
>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous market fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of
>>>>>>>>>>> markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets
>>>>>>>>>>> is the ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some employers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the Internet Archive already give that option to their employees. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis like that. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay those employees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them in sandwiches,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect payments if you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took
>>>>>>>>>>>>> place around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments
>>>>>>>>>>>>> historically try to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> control of something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network with no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using bittorrent has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various authorities... does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how often this happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what's happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business as usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 . If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to bitcoin and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>
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