[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Randy Yates lpcustom at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:37:47 UTC 2013


The dollar and euro are most definitely fiat currencies. They have been
since 1971. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock

Fiat money derives its value completely from the government saying it has
value. This never works. It has been tried many times throughout history.
There's no limit to the amount of dollars that the FED can print. The
regulation may seem great at first, but it can spiral out of control. The
value of gold has stayed pretty much constant for a very long time.

Our fiat currency is a way for the government to indirectly tax us but
still be able to say "we aren't raising taxes". It's a sham. We are paying
tons of taxes indirectly through inflation. If the government needs some
new jets, we just increase the debt ceiling, print more money, devalue the
current money in circulation, and tell everyone that we haven't increased
taxes. It works out well for politicians, not so much the citizens.

Your argument is that you can't go buy anything with bitcoins. You can. You
may not be able to buy everything you want yet, but that's because 1.) few
people know about it and 2.) there's so many nay-sayers who don't
comprehend that the value they place on the dollar is less secure than a
limited non-regulated digital currency.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Stephen,
> Actually no.  The inherit value I get from them is the ability to trade
> them for goods, services, or even other currencies.  The dollar is not the
> only currency of value in this world.  I have bought Euros, Yen, CAD, and
> others. The Euro has been much stronger than the dollar for a while now
> (Nearly 10 years now?) even during the financial crisis in Europe. I am not
> sure why you keep making the assumption that everyone wants dollars.  I
> have gotten alot of utility (the true value of ANY currency) from my
> Bitcoins by trading/using them natively without any laundering into other
> currencies.  I do this daily.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>
>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>> somehow.
>>
>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay with
>> bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chad,
>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>
>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a medium
>>> of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use it for
>>> all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>
>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>
>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>> have them.
>>>>
>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>
>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to keep
>>>> convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on little
>>>> cardboard discs.
>>>>
>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.  But
>>>> there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy it
>>>> while it lasts."
>>>>
>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>
>>>>> -AW
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and focus
>>>>>>> on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out how to
>>>>>>> devalue it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <dbmchone at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums it up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without fully
>>>>>>>> understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses want, or
>>>>>>>> a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s and only
>>>>>>>> led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government manipulation
>>>>>>>> of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and disastrous market
>>>>>>>> fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of markets
>>>>>>>> without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets is the
>>>>>>>> ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some employers
>>>>>>>>>> like the Internet Archive already give that option to their employees. In
>>>>>>>>>> other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis like that. In
>>>>>>>>>> order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay those employees
>>>>>>>>>> that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them in sandwiches,
>>>>>>>>>> water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect payments if you're
>>>>>>>>>> an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took place
>>>>>>>>>> around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments historically try
>>>>>>>>>> to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting control of
>>>>>>>>>> something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency for
>>>>>>>>>>> a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in each
>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network with no
>>>>>>>>>>>> central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using bittorrent has
>>>>>>>>>>>> been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various authorities... does
>>>>>>>>>>>> it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how often this happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>> from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think what's
>>>>>>>>>>>> happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads around this
>>>>>>>>>>>> gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue business as
>>>>>>>>>>>> usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 . If
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to bitcoin and
>>>>>>>>>>>> another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money" by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously, notice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>
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