[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:32:09 UTC 2013


Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.

Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.

Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?

I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me, but
people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for
products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea
shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the
apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.

But that does not mean I can magically declare the major currency accepted
globally as dead becauwe my sea shells hava negotiable value among a select
group
On Aug 22, 2013 1:26 PM, "Tyler Mittan" <flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Randy and Lynn are right on.
>
> The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing
> currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money.
> This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not
> everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is
> propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what
> the government forces banks to accept and because people think the
> government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most
> people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency
> On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded
>> bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.
>>
>> While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their
>> expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder
>> into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT
>> service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars
>> somehow.
>>
>> Until you can go to a local grocer or gas station and directly pay with
>> bitcoins, its going to remain a neat, yet niche idea.
>> On Aug 22, 2013 1:15 PM, "Lynn Dixon" <boodaddy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chad,
>>> I disagree.  Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is
>>> determined by the demand/supply for it.  The supply is very fixed by the
>>> network, and cannot be manipulated.  Therefore the value is directly linked
>>> to the demand of the currency.
>>>
>>> The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a medium
>>> of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange.  I use it for
>>> all 3 of these.  I don't think people used POGs as a medium of exchange.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Chad Smith <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>
>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>
>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>> have them.
>>>>
>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>
>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to keep
>>>> convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on little
>>>> cardboard discs.
>>>>
>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.  But
>>>> there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy it
>>>> while it lasts."
>>>>
>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>
>>>>> -AW
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and focus
>>>>>>> on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out how to
>>>>>>> devalue it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <dbmchone at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums it up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without fully
>>>>>>>> understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses want, or
>>>>>>>> a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s and only
>>>>>>>> led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government manipulation
>>>>>>>> of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and disastrous market
>>>>>>>> fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of markets
>>>>>>>> without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets is the
>>>>>>>> ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some employers
>>>>>>>>>> like the Internet Archive already give that option to their employees. In
>>>>>>>>>> other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis like that. In
>>>>>>>>>> order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay those employees
>>>>>>>>>> that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them in sandwiches,
>>>>>>>>>> water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect payments if you're
>>>>>>>>>> an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took place
>>>>>>>>>> around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments historically try
>>>>>>>>>> to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting control of
>>>>>>>>>> something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency for
>>>>>>>>>>> a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in each
>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network with no
>>>>>>>>>>>> central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using bittorrent has
>>>>>>>>>>>> been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various authorities... does
>>>>>>>>>>>> it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how often this happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>> from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think what's
>>>>>>>>>>>> happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads around this
>>>>>>>>>>>> gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue business as
>>>>>>>>>>>> usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 . If
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to bitcoin and
>>>>>>>>>>>> another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money" by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously, notice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>
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