[Chugalug] More on Bitcoin:

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 17:25:32 UTC 2013


Randy: a fiat currency implies it only has an inherint value due to the
direct control of an interested party, and is only spendable within a very
likited number of markets.

Thats not the dollar or the Euro. They are equivilently exchangable with
one another across broad markets.

Fiat currency is literally what Bitcoins are.

But, at the same time you are correct, the dollar may in the future lose
all its intended value, but I guarentee when that time comes, its unlikely
it will jusy be a matter of transitioning to another currency....most
likely because the world will be in chaos and civil wars, if not a world
war breaking out.
On Aug 22, 2013 1:19 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:

> Give the dollar time.
>
> "Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to keep
> convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on little
> cardboard discs."
>
> This is criticizing any fiat currency, and I agree with it. The dollar is
> only worth something as long as people are convinced it's worth something.
> It's had a good run as a standard world currency, but all world currencies
> reach their end, and the results are not fun.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> POGs crashed entirely. The dollar crashes but pretty much always bounces
>> back as the global economy follows the market cycle.
>>
>> Thats the problme with your criticism of Chad's argument.
>>
>> Also, no matter how devalued the dollar is right now, I can buy my lunch
>> with it. If I offered pogs or even bitcoin alll I'd get is funny looks or a
>> heartfelt apology and rejection
>>  On Aug 22, 2013 1:09 PM, "Randy Yates" <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's humorous with Chad's entire argument is that the same could be
>>> said about the dollar.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you summed that up well Chad
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 12:53 PM, "Chad Smith" <chad78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's like POGs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember POGs?
>>>>>
>>>>> BitCoins are like POGs.  Really, in and of themselves, that have
>>>>> absolutely no value.  But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off
>>>>> of POGs.  Why?  Because they were able to convince people they needed to
>>>>> have them.
>>>>>
>>>>> People bought into it - and some of *those *people also got rich -
>>>>> because they collected and traded and sold them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to keep
>>>>> convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on little
>>>>> cardboard discs.
>>>>>
>>>>> BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek.  It won't last.  But
>>>>> there will be people who make money off of it.  To them I say "Enjoy it
>>>>> while it lasts."
>>>>>
>>>>> *- Chad W. Smith*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Me too, me too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Lynn Dixon <boodaddy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>> This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years.
>>>>>>>  Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say
>>>>>>> for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure
>>>>>>> going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Aaron welch <n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed.  Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and focus
>>>>>>>> on the important parts...  Make the money now before they figure out how to
>>>>>>>> devalue it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -AW
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Bret McHone <dbmchone at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4   This about sums it
>>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -B
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of
>>>>>>>>> currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same
>>>>>>>>> problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without fully
>>>>>>>>> understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses want, or
>>>>>>>>> a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s and only
>>>>>>>>> led to massive worker and market abuses.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is with even deeper irony that you decry government
>>>>>>>>> manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and
>>>>>>>>> disastrous market fluctuations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of
>>>>>>>>> markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets
>>>>>>>>> is the ENTIRE point of economics.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Like I said, when pigs fly.
>>>>>>>>>  On Aug 22, 2013 11:12 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys" <mk6032 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some employers
>>>>>>>>>>> like the Internet Archive already give that option to their employees. In
>>>>>>>>>>> other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing factor in a crisis like that. In
>>>>>>>>>>> order to keep food, water, shelter, etc. you'd need to pay those employees
>>>>>>>>>>> that keep those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them in sandwiches,
>>>>>>>>>>> water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you collect payments if you're
>>>>>>>>>>> an employer?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took place
>>>>>>>>>>> around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102". Governments historically try
>>>>>>>>>>> to seize or ban when they're loosing control or wanting control of
>>>>>>>>>>> something -- land, water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and protection, not
>>>>>>>>>>>> bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize, bitcoins might rise up to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> Euro/Dollar but it is very unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Haywood
>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner, ASG Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>> CISSP, GSEC, OSCP
>>>>>>>>>>>> 423.305.3700
>>>>>>>>>>>> stephen at averagesecurityguy.info
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <mk6032 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Yeah, have fun...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in each
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a peer-to-peer network with no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> central authority. Downloading copyrighted material using bittorrent has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various authorities... does
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it still happen? Do the authorities know exactly how often this happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from where, to/from whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think what's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> happening is that governments are starting to wrap their heads around this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gigantic problem -- "how the hell are we going to continue business as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> usual if this really takes off worldwide?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If the euro does go belly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the German authorities could potentially still collect tax if everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> started using the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward-thinking!" -- http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898 . If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a shit about German taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're going to dump their Euro money, as fast as possible, to bitcoin and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another forms of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an exponential scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, guess what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxes. Have fun!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbatmanquestion at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private money" by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Aaron Welch
>>>>>> Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures
>>>>>> 423-505-9999
>>>>>> n2nightfall at gmail.com
>>>>>> "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."
>>>>>>
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