[Chugalug] Bitcoin = scam

Stephen Kraus ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com
Wed Aug 7 13:22:46 UTC 2013


Okay, another scenario:

Lets say that tomorrow, the USD us declared to have no value.

Explain how bitcoins will then have a value, and how you intend to set its
worth
On Aug 7, 2013 8:14 AM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Aaron, the US dollar holds buying power because banks, companies, and the
> US government says it does. Thats a lot of weight, not to mention, no
> matter how bad it gets foreign traders still recognize the USD as having
> buying power.
> On Aug 7, 2013 8:12 AM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lets put the whole 'limited amount' im perspective:
>>
>> Lets say you are a panhandler, you find a cache of gold.
>>
>> Awesome! So you mine as fast as you can, but eventually a large and
>> fairly well to do company finds out.
>>
>> You can mine as fast as you can, but that large company has equipment,
>> manpower, and time on their side.
>> On Aug 7, 2013 7:57 AM, "Aaron Welch" <n2nightfall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would love to have a discussion about this at a CHUGALUG event
>>> sometime.
>>>
>>> -AW
>>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2013, at 8:50 AM, Randy Yates <lpcustom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Except that there is a limited number of bitcoins, and the limit on
>>> dollars keeps going up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, I'd point out that you are effectively doing with Bitcoins what
>>>> many Libertarians claim the US Federal Reserve is doing: pulling money out
>>>> of thin air.
>>>>  On Aug 7, 2013 7:21 AM, "Stephen Kraus" <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its not anger. Its confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, its a fiat currency.
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2013 6:01 AM, "James Nylen" <jnylen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Randy, I agree... I think much of the negativity towards Bitcoin is
>>>>>> unwarranted.  I understand unwillingness to spend money on something that
>>>>>> has less real value than a tulip, but that shouldn't translate into anger
>>>>>> when it turns out to actually have made some people a lot of money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Source:  http://buttcoin.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Randy Yates <lpcustom at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You guys were saying the same thing when it was $9 per bitcoin. If
>>>>>>> you'd taken a $100 risk, you could have brought in around $2400 last month.
>>>>>>> I'm not saying that I'd start using bitcoin as my currency of choice at the
>>>>>>> moment. I'm just saying that there have been plenty of negativity toward it
>>>>>>> on here and I only wish I'd swept some of that aside and bought about 100
>>>>>>> bitcoins last year when it was low. I could have paid a chunk of my house
>>>>>>> off this year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:50 PM, James Nylen <jnylen at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think Bitcoin shows some truly interesting qualities.  It is hard
>>>>>>>> to counterfeit, transparent, and easy to spend.  Digital currencies based
>>>>>>>> on cryptography show great promise in terms of libertarian free-market
>>>>>>>> ideals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I must disclose that I made a small investment in Bitcoin a couple
>>>>>>>> years ago, so my conclusions are subject to the usual biases.  Thus far,
>>>>>>>> though, I'm glad to have been part of the experiment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Stephen Kraus <
>>>>>>>> ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've tried explaining this before, but unfortunately people are
>>>>>>>>> really bought into the idea, and its none of my business what they do with
>>>>>>>>> their time and processing power.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its pretty much a pyramid scam, insufficient as a dependable
>>>>>>>>> currency and fluctuates too quickly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Buy, people can do as they please, but its along the same lines as
>>>>>>>>> claiming vaccines cause autism.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2013 12:01 PM, "Mike Robinson" <
>>>>>>>>> miker at sundialservices.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll call it what it -is-:  it's a scam directed at nerds.  "...
>>>>>>>>>> and two to take him."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The con consists, first, of posing a computationally-difficult
>>>>>>>>>> yet not-insurmountable crypto problem.  It can be solved; it just takes a
>>>>>>>>>> long time.  So, nerds are instantly absorbed in the "challenge for a
>>>>>>>>>> challenge's own sake," namely, to solve the problem.  They can be counted
>>>>>>>>>> on not to examine the whole proposal too-seriously, because nerds generally
>>>>>>>>>> consider themselves to be trustworthy and thus are too-trusting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Someone (but we don't actually know who ...) said" that the
>>>>>>>>>> number of bitcoins would be limited .. which is a necessary premise if
>>>>>>>>>> you're being conned into thinking that you're mining for gold.  "Tokens can
>>>>>>>>>> only be used once."  And most importantly, "the verification software
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be tricked into giving a false-positive."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subtly, now, the nerds are suckered into giving-up REAL CURRENCY
>>>>>>>>>> ... more than $100 USD at this point ... which they don't mind doing
>>>>>>>>>> because, of course, they're sure that Nothing Comes Down (-and- that there
>>>>>>>>>> is something holding it Up in the first place).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's pointless, though, to argue these points with people who
>>>>>>>>>> have caught "digital Gold Fever."  The only thing that can be done in that
>>>>>>>>>> case is to sell them shovels and picks, which is precisely what Leland
>>>>>>>>>> Stanford, among many others, did.  Well, I have nothing to sell you, but
>>>>>>>>>> I'll rest my case at this point and disregard the inevitable rebuttal.
>>>>>>>>>>  Presumably, you're not going to lose any money that you can't afford to
>>>>>>>>>> lose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 5, 2013, at 5:50 PM, chugalug-request at chugalug.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Call it what you will, but those who got into Bitcoin early have
>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>> extremely well.  Also, there is a pretty clear exponential trend
>>>>>>>>>> relative
>>>>>>>>>> to the dollar, which implies its value is still increasing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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